Calvinism makes a roaring Comeback in modern Christianity (Lutherans, punishment, dogmas)

[DNick]

Originally Posted by shibata

Luther wrote that the pope was the devil's representative on earth- the Antichrist. In this he agreed with every other Reformer- no matter what else they disagreed on, they were unanimous about papacy, in theory as well as practice.

Luther did indeed attempt to restrain those who found medieval religion unsatisfactory, and cannot really be described as Protestant.

Yes he did, but NOT in his 95 theses.

[shibata]

Originally Posted by DNick

Yes he did, but NOT in his 95 theses.

Quite so.

I wasn't aware that the Theses were the context.

[DNick]

Originally Posted by shibata

Quite so.

I wasn't aware that the Theses were the context.

Well it was. Those are what were presented to me to read.

[shibata]

Originally Posted by DNick

Well it was. Those are what were presented to me to read.

In which post, please?

(Though I don't see how it makes any practical difference. One cannot use Luther's position at any stage of his life as justifying papacy, because his mature position was to reject it entirely and with the greatest vigor. The same goes for every other Reformer, so it really is a forlorn hope, that no scholar would even attempt, to appeal to historic Protestantism for support for papacy. It is one of the absurd bits of nonsense that is only ever suggested on the internet, where people no know better.)

[DNick]

Originally Posted by shibata

In which post, please?

(Though I don't see how it makes any practical difference. One cannot use Luther's position at any stage of his life as justifying papacy, because his mature position was to reject it entirely and with the greatest vigor. The same goes for every other Reformer, so it really is a forlorn hope, that no scholar would even attempt, to appeal to historic Protestantism for support for papacy. It is one of the absurd bits of nonsense that is only ever suggested on the internet, where people no know better.)

Find it yourself. Why should I look, if it doesn't make a difference.

[caucazhin]

THANYOU Ironmaw1776 for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but...
Luther was an antisemetic woman hater, Augustine believed only catholics were saved and also came up with the " turn the other cheek " "Just War Theory" and as you so rightly pointed out Calvin had Servatus burned at the stake..
"if you have done it to the least of these you have done it unto me"

[caucazhin]

Unfortunately (or fortunately - however you want to look at it) the Christ life has virtually nothing to do with good or bad theology or with good or bad doctrine. The concept that correct theology is all important is (in my view) by far the biggest hindrance to the proliferation of the kingdom of God on earth.

By and large, Christians think that adhering to correct doctrine makes you free (saves) and that's just so far off the mark on so many levels.

Only one commandment really matters: "Love one another as I have loved you". If we all sought God to cause us to walk in that one truth - we would lack nothing.

I understand that Calvin and Luther exposed some ridiculous corruption going on in the RCC, but if you look at their lives they were barbaric, savage men to whom the suffering of mankind as a whole meant very little. I don't entirely blame them personally as it was a cruel time in history - but these dark men born of a dark time have been sugar coated and idolized for far too long.

If any of us here were to live with either of them for one week and see the atrocities - executions by fire, torture, persecution, and the hunger for control these men had, we would probably come back to our time physically ill just from witnessing it.

Contrast that to Jesus who never harmed a single hair on the head of anyone.

Do your own research, study the peasant wars, where the money was going, the tracking down and slaughtering of heretics - this was not the pure/God inspired revolution that protestants are led to believe it was.

Yes, they were brave and stood up for what they believed in against a powerful system, but please - don't equate this with Godliness (because it isn't the equivalent).


Some cool theology did come out of it all - mainly the knowledge that there is only ONE mediator who is personally available to every human. Very important to know. But anyone can pick up a bible and figure that out - no need to praise Calvin and Luther for that. Just credit freedom of speech and the printing press.

AMEN 2 that Brother ! ! ! !

[shibata]

Originally Posted by DNick

Find it yourself. Why should I look, if it doesn't make a difference.

It is agreed, then, that it is misleading to say that Luther accepted the authority of 'the pope'. He thought that 'the pope' was imaginary as valid authority, as indeed Renaissance scholars had taught for many years before him.

[caucazhin]

I will agree with you of how 'bad' these men were, yet they were instrumental in the change of church history. Luther himself was influenced by the Waldensians of the Swiss Alps who were outside the reach of the Roman Catholic system. these men were products of their time, imperfect in many ways, yet they took a stand against the religious system that controlled much of known world. many died for the simple truths that they rediscovered which today is Sunday school material for us. it was only the beginning of the work of God to bring the church back to be more 'Christ-like'. did they produce the church of God's love? far from it, but it did awaken individuals who became true instruments of that love. they were a spark to get the fire moving.

we can point fingers at churches today who are nothing like Christ. it is a shame that they even call themselves the church, be they calvinist or arminian or whatever. you are so correct on the topic of doctrine. in one sense it is good to study to in some why grasp truth, but it can so easily enslave people to follow blindly proposed 'truth' and miss out on following the One who is Truth. I guess the one true doctrine is that which you have quoted, "Love one another as I have loved you". all doctrine must be filtered through this truth with no exceptions.

thanks for your reply!!

So was Alexander the Great, Napoleon & Hitler and this doesnt excuse their behavior one bit ! ! ! People with the truth are even more guilty if they dont adhere 2 it....

[shibata]

Originally Posted by caucazhin

these men were products of their time,

I wonder if that excuse will wash on judgement day.