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I never said God can't hear sinners. He can't hear them unless they are ready to believe in Jesus as Savior.
Here's the Adam Clarke Commentary
Verse 31. God heareth not sinners
I believe the word αμαÏτωλων signifies heathens, or persons not proselyted to the Jewish religion; and therefore it is put in opposition to θεοσεβης, aworshipper of the true God. See the note on Luke 7:37. But in what sense may it be said, following our common version, that Godheareth not sinners? When they regard iniquity in their heart-when they wish to be saved, and yet abide in their sins-when they will not separate themselves from the workers and works of iniquity.In all these cases, God heareth not sinners.
Here are some additional scriptures to back up the John 9:31 passage.
What if someone says, "God. I'm not sure about all this Jesus stuff, and I'm not ready to believe. I was told that He is the way, the truth, and the life, but I don't know. Please teach me more about this so I can decide if I am ready to believe in you or not." Now, they weren't "ready" to believe. According to you, God would not hear that prayer.
The commentary lists these who God doesn't hear:
Those who regard iniquity in their heart
Those who wish to be saved yet abide in sins
Those who don't separate themselves from workers of iniquity
Those who don't separate themselves from works on iniquity.
Is that pretty much the entire list of people who God can't hear? Jesus didn't separate himself from workers of iniquity. He reached out to them with love and forgiveness. I don't put any stock in what the commentary said.
Proverbs 15:29 - Doesn't say he can't hear them.
29The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
In Isaiah and Micah He was talking to extremely evil people. He said when they prayed He won't hear, and most likely this meant He would not "listen," and would not answer their prayer.
Isaiah 1:
10Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Micah 3:4
1And I said, Hear, I pray you, O heads of Jacob, and ye princes of the house of Israel; Is it not for you to know judgment?
2Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones;
3Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron.
4Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
James 5:
I think you quoted the wrong scripture. The prayer of a righeous man avails much. Ok. This doesn't say he doesn't hear a sinner pray unless they are "ready" to believe.
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
Get real! No one finds that humorous! You missed the point entirely!
What's humorous is that they knew the pastor was correct. Without Jesus sacrifice, we're doomed! What do you think Jesus meant when He said He came in grace & TRUTH? What did He mean by TRUTH?
I don't see how I missed the point. You say they found it humorous because the pastor was correct in saying that he, along with all the congregation, deserve to sizzle in a frying pan throughout eternity. If you really believe that's true, I suggest that you set aside a day to do nothing but think on the ramifications of that to all the different kinds of people you can think of. It's something ETers say they believe, but sweep it into the corner of their minds. Think about it and talk to God about it.
I'm not ashamed to say I don't deserve to be subjected to pure evil torture infinitely, and neither do you, or does anyone else. No one asked to be born. God had them to be born and He will have them to be born again. It's all part of the creation plan.
What if someone says, "God. I'm not sure about all this Jesus stuff, and I'm not ready to believe. I was told that He is the way, the truth, and the life, but I don't know. Please teach me more about this so I can decide if I am ready to believe in you or not." Now, they weren't "ready" to believe. According to you, God would not hear that prayer.
Only Jesus knows the true intent of that prayer. I think a person like that would probably fall in this category:
Those who wish to be saved yet abide in sins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow
Is that pretty much the entire list of people who God can't hear? Jesus didn't separate himself from workers of iniquity. He reached out to them with love and forgiveness. I don't put any stock in what the commentary said.
Proverbs 15:29 - Doesn't say he can't hear them.
29The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
In Isaiah and Micah He was talking to extremely evil people. He said when they prayed He won't hear, and most likely this meant He would not "listen," and would not answer their prayer.
Isaiah 1:
10Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Micah 3:4
1And I said, Hear, I pray you, O heads of Jacob, and ye princes of the house of Israel; Is it not for you to know judgment?
2Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones;
3Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron.
4Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
Let me see if I have this right. You disagree with your pastor (who has a Phd in theology?), you put no stock in commentary (by men who've studied the original language) because the results are offensive to you. Shaky ground!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow
James 5:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow
I think you quoted the wrong scripture. The prayer of a righeous man avails much. Ok. This doesn't say he doesn't hear a sinner pray unless they are "ready" to believe.
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
If the prayer of a righeous man avails much, what does that say about the unrighteous? Their prayers ain't doin' much good!
Back to your congregation & Sunday's sermon. Did you ask anyone else why they laughed at the pastor's comment? Do you think any of them would agree with him?
I don't see how I missed the point. You say they found it humorous because the pastor was correct in saying that he, along with all the congregation, deserve to sizzle in a frying pan throughout eternity. If you really believe that's true, I suggest that you set aside a day to do nothing but think on the ramifications of that to all the different kinds of people you can think of. It's something ETers say they believe, but sweep it into the corner of their minds. Think about it and talk to God about it.
I'm not ashamed to say I don't deserve to be subjected to pure evil torture infinitely, and neither do you, or does anyone else. No one asked to be born. God had them to be born and He will have them to be born again. It's all part of the creation plan.
No one wants to think about that. That's why we witness!!!
I hope you will read this:
Matthew 25, Verse 46.And these, etc. These persons. Many, holding the doctrine of universal salvation, have contended that God would punish sin only. Christ says that those on his left hand shall go away-not sins, but sinners. Besides, sin, as an abstract thing, cannot be punished. It is nothing but the acts of transgressors; and to be reached at all, must be reached by punishing the offenders. Into everlasting punishment.The original word, here translated punishment, means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament, 1 John 4:18, "Fear hath torment." The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used, Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a state or condition, but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word could express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked would not be eternal, or without end. It is not the purpose of these Notes to enter into debates of that kind farther than to fix the meaning of words. In regard to the meaning of the word everlasting in this place, it is to be observed:
1st. That the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity-- always being, Matthew 18:8; 19:16; Mark 3:29; Romans 2:7; Hebrews 5:9.
2nd. That the obvious, plain interpretation of the word demands this signification.
3rd. That admitting that it was the Saviour's design ever to teach his doctrine, this would be the very word to express it; and if this does not teach it, it could not be taught.
4th. That it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be
5th. That our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6th. That he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce fear and terror; and if he was benevolent, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary fears.
7th. That the word used here is the same in the original as thatused to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the samearguments. The proof that the righteous will be happy for ever isprecisely the same, and no other than that the wicked will bemiserable for ever.
8th. That it is confirmed by many other passages of Scripture, 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8,9; Luke 16:26; Revelation 14:11; Psalms 9:17; Isaiah 33:14; Mark 16:16; John 3:36. Life eternal. Man by sin has plunged himself into death--temporal, spiritual, eternal. Christ, by coming and dying, has abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light, 2 Timothy 1:10. Life is the opposite of death. It denotes, here, freedom from death, and positive holiness and happiness for ever. "And these" Daniel 12:2; John 5:29
Only Jesus knows the true intent of that prayer. I think a person like that would probably fall in this category:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Those who wish to be saved yet abide in sins
So, I guess you changed your mind that He doesn't hear unbelievers unless they are ready to believe. I'm not saying that to be snide. These forums are pointless if no one concedes a point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Let me see if I have this right. You disagree with your pastor (who has a Phd in theology?), you put no stock in commentary (by men who've studied the original language) because the results are offensive to you. Shaky ground!
Hebrews 12: 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Sometimes I agree with the pastor and sometimes I don't, depending on how the Holy Spirit leads. I didn't say I don't agree with all commentaries. I said that commentary, because I already know that God can and does hear unbelievers. I do not disagree because I am offended by anyone's interpretations, I disagree because I disagree with their interpretations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
If the prayer of a righeous man avails much, what does that say about the unrighteous? Their prayers ain't doin' much good!
If A=B, and B=C, then A=C. But you're saying if A=B, then C doesn't=B. You can't logically jump to a conclusion like that. Wouldn't you say the prayer of an unrighteous man saying, "Forgive me, God, for I have sinnned," avails much? I think so!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Back to your congregation & Sunday's sermon. Did you ask anyone else why they laughed at the pastor's comment? Do you think any of them would agree with him?
I didn't ask anyone why they laughed. They naturally laughed because the thought of someone sizzling in a frying pan for eternity is absurd, even though they think they believe it will happen. I'm sure most of them think they agree with him if they haven't given it much thought. However, if they found out a wayward child was beaten mercilessly, or an unfaithful wife was murdered, or a dog was tortured with fire, they would not think that was justice....and none of these horrible things goes on forever with no ending.
No one wants to think about that. That's why we witness!!!
I hope you will read this:
Matthew 25, Verse 46.And these, etc. These persons. Many, holding the doctrine of universal salvation, have contended that God would punish sin only. Christ says that those on his left hand shall go away-not sins, but sinners. Besides, sin, as an abstract thing, cannot be punished. It is nothing but the acts of transgressors; and to be reached at all, must be reached by punishing the offenders. Into everlasting punishment.The original word, here translated punishment, means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament, 1 John 4:18, "Fear hath torment." The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used, Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a state or condition, but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word could express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked would not be eternal, or without end. It is not the purpose of these Notes to enter into debates of that kind farther than to fix the meaning of words. In regard to the meaning of the word everlasting in this place, it is to be observed:
1st. That the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity-- always being, Matthew 18:8; 19:16; Mark 3:29; Romans 2:7; Hebrews 5:9.
2nd. That the obvious, plain interpretation of the word demands this signification.
3rd. That admitting that it was the Saviour's design ever to teach his doctrine, this would be the very word to express it; and if this does not teach it, it could not be taught.
4th. That it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be
5th. That our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6th. That he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce fear and terror; and if he was benevolent, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary fears.
7th. That the word used here is the same in the original as thatused to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the samearguments. The proof that the righteous will be happy for ever isprecisely the same, and no other than that the wicked will bemiserable for ever.
8th. That it is confirmed by many other passages of Scripture, 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8,9; Luke 16:26; Revelation 14:11; Psalms 9:17; Isaiah 33:14; Mark 16:16; John 3:36. Life eternal. Man by sin has plunged himself into death--temporal, spiritual, eternal. Christ, by coming and dying, has abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light, 2 Timothy 1:10. Life is the opposite of death. It denotes, here, freedom from death, and positive holiness and happiness for ever. "And these" Daniel 12:2; John 5:29
Jimmie, when you stand in front of the Lord your God when you meet Him face to face, you can tell Him all that. I'm going to tell Him that I love Him, and thank Him for sending Jesus to be the Savior of the world, for creating the world for His pleasure, for being Love, for His mercies being new every morning, for being a Consuming Fire that will burn away the sins of the flesh, for being just and holy and good, and for defeating the devil, death and the grave.
4th. That it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be
5th. That our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6th. That he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce fear and terror; and if he was benevolent, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary fears.
That's a ridiculous logic. So, the Muslim doctrine, with its "hell," which elicits a great amount of fear, is also true? If God is benevolent, why would He do this? Why does He allow many horrible things to happen around the globe? There is a great answer to those questions. It has happened before, and it is happening again.
The leaders in Jerusalem were making it very difficult for the average guy to live. They were very EDUCATED individuals. That is why SAUL/PAUL would not listen to anybody who said Jesus was the messiah. He knew his scripture back to front. He trusted the other men that gave him that information (GUYS from SEMINARY, if you will). WHY did the apostle Saul/Paul have STEPHEN STONED?
The Jewish leaders were giving UNNECESSARY burdens to the populace. They believed FABLES (underworlds). Paul (when God struck him, AGAINST his will, with the TRUTH) in the New Testament cried for 3 YEARS warning people about the GREAT apostasy that was about to enter the church. John wrote of the beast (politics) that would ride the whor* (church). WHY? What does POLITICS and RELIGION have to do with one another? A GREAT DEAL! How do you, if you are IN POWER, make the populace FEAR YOU? How do you get them to do what YOU WANT? FEAR! What is the most HIDEOUS doctrine ever to appear in religion? THE TORTURE OF HUMANS IN THE AFTERLIFE! That GOD is going to set people that he knit in the womb on FIRE FOR ETERNITY!!! All the while many pastors, preachers, teachers, priests, and imams have done SICKENING things behind closed doors. Made disgusting pacts to enslave and conquer others. Do you really think they BELIEVE what they themselves teach? I think not.
Babylon IS going to COME DOWN! DO NOT BE PART OF IT WHEN IT DOES!
Do you know about the lying scribes?
Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say that you are wise and that you have the LORD's teachings? The scribes have used their pens to turn these teachings into lies.
JESUS hated their ways. He said they were headed for GEHENNA! NOT US! The folks at THE TOP, who KNEW what was going on around the WORLD. The ELITE. They were trash. And their WHOLE system fell. It was prophesied that it would happen again. Except this time, it would be the church that Christ started, intertwined with the political systems. God's love for the WHOLE WORLD is NO LONGER taught. And, really, when was it ever? THE DARK AGES? Tell that to the people being strung up for arguing with the church. Was His LOVE taught in AMERICA? Can you say SLAVERY? PURITANS? Jonathan EDWARDS? No. LOVE was never taught. BABYLONIAN UNDERWORLDS were. Check out the OCCULT founding of our country. You might be surprised. I'm sure many fine men who were trying to preach the good word did not fully understand what was going on. They still don't. They are in the dark.
The scribes have lied again.
God has allowed many, MANY horrible things to happen here. He has allowed, MANY, many stupid things to be taught. Think about it.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Revelation 5:13 Then I heardevery creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
That will be the best day in the whole HISTORY of the UNIVERSE!
Lordy with all this talk about Babylon seeing the US is about a Babylon/Leviathan as it can get .It makes anything Egypt was about volume wise in idolatry and tech wise look tame.
Lordy with all this talk about Babylon seeing the US is about a Babylon/Leviathan as it can get .
Babylon SEES the U.S.? How so?
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