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Old 04-13-2010, 04:18 PM
 
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To me it seems that those that to believe in preterism you need to take the context of Jesus words correctly, Jesus was speaking to the Jews about the need to believe what he was saying to them about judgment that was coming to them and they were to save themselves from the wrath that was coming to them in 70AD. These words are also then given a spiritual double meaning in that you personally need to believe in Jesus to be born again, it is taken as a spiritual message to everyone to believe in Jesus and save yourself either from a literal fiery hell or from eternal death.

To me it seems that the old covenant with Israel was a physical covenant with physical promises and was also to bring in the Messiah.

The Messiah brings in the new covenant which is for all through him. How do the gentiles before Christ get saved if they have never heard of him? How do those that never heard of Jesus after his death and resurrection achieve salvation if it is dependent on them believing what they have not heard?
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Old 04-13-2010, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Meerkat,

Rev 20 decides the outcome of anyone prior to Jesus and the ROTD itself.

Sea - Gentile world
Death and Hades - Covenant world

Remember the queen of the south....a Gentile...that did not keep the covenant of the Holy God of Israel...see what Jesus had to say about her:

The Queen of the South will arise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here." (Matthew 12:38-42 RSV)

Buddha was judged by his works, as the ROTD is a judgement of works. Personally I believe, Buddha has eternal life. His works, from a historical standpoint, were very good to everyone, outside of the covenant world, yet all of this "very good" creation God created, within it NOW lay the new Creation, under Christ, and the text is very clear about the need to be part of that New Creation of eternal living, and that is faith in Christ. The ROTD was the cusp of a era in the dimension of eternal living, spirit world, whatever you want to call it. Hades, or Sheol, was emptied out, judged and separated to either punishment, or life. It can be a complicated subject, if one doesn't fully comprehend the view of Fulfilled Covenant Eschatology, but like I always say, in time we will.

Now, we are under the New Covenant, and the message and LAW still stands, now all focus on Christ written on our hearts, only by FAITH IN HIM. No FAITH, NO RECORD OF IT ON OUR HEART.
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Old 04-13-2010, 05:16 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 451,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Meerkat,

Rev 20 decides the outcome of anyone prior to Jesus and the ROTD itself.

Sea - Gentile world
Death and Hades - Covenant world

Remember the queen of the south....a Gentile...that did not keep the covenant of the Holy God of Israel...see what Jesus had to say about her:

The Queen of the South will arise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here." (Matthew 12:38-42 RSV)

Buddha was judged by his works, as the ROTD is a judgement of works. Personally I believe, Buddha has eternal life. His works, from a historical standpoint, were very good to everyone, outside of the covenant world, yet all of this "very good" creation God created, within it NOW lay the new Creation, under Christ, and the text is very clear about the need to be part of that New Creation of eternal living, and that is faith in Christ. The ROTD was the cusp of a era in the dimension of eternal living, spirit world, whatever you want to call it. Hades, or Sheol, was emptied out, judged and separated to either punishment, or life. It can be a complicated subject, if one doesn't fully comprehend the view of Fulfilled Covenant Eschatology, but like I always say, in time we will.

Now, we are under the New Covenant, and the message and LAW still stands, now all focus on Christ written on our hearts, only by FAITH IN HIM. No FAITH, NO RECORD OF IT ON OUR HEART.
What of all those that have not heard of Christ after 70AD what of all those that have believed but have committed murder in the name of God e.g. Calvin what of those that do not believe because of the hypocricy of those that are Gods messengers and do not do his commandments Love God and love your neighbour as yourselves.

God looks at the intent of the heart --- what you seem to be saying is that God looks at a confession (for whatever reason it is made -- some only confess to save themselves from an eternal hell) some reject christianity because of the mess that christianity is in --- what you seem to believe is that belonging to christianity will save you. That was exactly what the Jews though belonging to Judaism would save them.
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Old 04-13-2010, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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No meerkat,

I believe that Christ is who He said He is, and what His sacrifice did for me personally (that makes me saved), and as well as corporately.
He and His work is the complete fulfillment of the Law.
In understanding this, I have the mind of Christ.

What happens to those after the ROTD is up to the Lord isn't it? What we understand for the wicked, is the second death. This, because there is no more SEA, all people are under the "iron rod" of Christ's government/NH&E. And in that governement, there are two locations, inside and outside of the New Jerusalem. There are two kinds of people, those inside and outside. Remember, no more Sea. No more clasification of Gentile, outside of covenantal order. The order encompasses all mankind, and there is redemption completed from the curses under that order - Faith in Christ. That is why it is so important to get the message out.

His creation will continue to increase to a world without end, as it has been increasing ever since.
By leaps and bounds. The stats are out there. Over 200K people every single day are coming to the faith...why would God stop this again?
I just can't see Him putting a stop to this, when He wouldn't even destroy Sodom if the count of righteous was under ten?
His word is neverchanging.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 04-13-2010 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 04-13-2010, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
No meerkat,

I believe that Christ is who He said He is, and what His sacrifice did for me personally (that makes me saved), and as well as corporately. He and His work is the complete fulfillment of the Law.
In understanding this, I have the mind of Christ.

What happens to those after the ROTD is up to the Lord isn't it?
His creation will continue to increase to a world without end, as it has been increasing ever since.
By leaps and bounds. The stats are out there. Over 200K people every single day are coming to the faith...why would God stop this again?

1/3 of the world's population label themselves as of the faith of Christ. Yet around 106,000,000,000 people have ever lived (PRB.org) of which there are about 6,000,000,000 or 6% living on earth at any given time. So no matter what you say about 200k being saved everyday... that is an infinitesimally small number compared to how many have actually lived.

And so you are saying there are 2/3 of the people who ever lived who never did have the "mind of Christ" but because you do...

Oops I think I am heading off topic.
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Old 04-13-2010, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
1/3 of the world's population label themselves as of the faith of Christ. Yet around 106,000,000,000 people have ever lived (PRB.org) of which there are about 6,000,000,000 or 6% living on earth at any given time. So no matter what you say about 200k being saved everyday... that is an infinitesimally small number compared to how many have actually lived.

And so you are saying there are 2/3 of the people who ever lived who never did have the "mind of Christ" but because you do...

Oops I think I am heading off topic.
I would have to disagree with you on the amount of saved. Remember the lost sheep parable......

Kat, the mind of Christ is simply:

That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
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Old 04-14-2010, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I would have to disagree with you on the amount of saved. Remember the lost sheep parable......

Kat, the mind of Christ is simply:

That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Doesn't that just say that you shouldn't boast in yourself because Jesus didn't boast in himself but attributed all his wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption to God?

The lost sheep parable..."I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."

I was looking up lost sheep and Israel is who Jesus refers to as the lost sheep but we know that the other fold he has is probably the gentiles so I noticed this in Isaiah 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

So wouldn't you say that we can all be likened to lost sheep, at one time or another when we followed our own ways?
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Old 04-14-2010, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Kat...and then Paul moves on into his prologue:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

and here:

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The Bible is related to God the Son, Jesus Christ, as the central subject of scripture.
1 Cor 2:16 says plainly that the Bible, the Holy Word, is the thinking, or the mind of Christ.
It was through this regeneration that believers were given the mind of Christ in order to "see" the spiritual realities in Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:14 teaches that the natural man (the man under the curse of the Old Covenant) cannot receive the things of Spirit of God (the heavenly things), neither can he know them because of their spiritually discernment. But on the flipside, however, the New Covenant man has understanding of the things of Christ:

1 Corinthians 2:15-16 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

In this verse Paul explains those that do understand the spiritual things of God, i.e., the things previously hidden from the foundation of the world...see 1 Corinthians 2:7. As opposed to those under the Old Covenant, those under the New Covenant have been given the spiritual understanding of the person and work of Christ and that He is the fulfillment of all of the promises in the OT.

That is having the mind of Christ.

About the lost sheep the 99 and the 1, it is directed to Israel, as a nation, as so is Isaiah's in Ch. 53.
But the tide turned in the prophecy in Ch. 54, where Isaiah spells out the inheritors of the lost sheep's kingdom.....and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

But as you and I believe that the scripture was written for us, not to us, we too can use both messages and apply them to us...this is the harmony of scriptures for all Israel, Gentile and Jew, now.
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Old 04-14-2010, 05:59 PM
 
37,472 posts, read 25,217,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The Bible is related to God the Son, Jesus Christ, as the central subject of scripture.
1 Cor 2:16 says plainly that the Bible, the Holy Word, is the thinking, or the mind of Christ.
This is an outright lie. Nowhere in 1 Cor 2:16 is ANY mention made oof the bible or ANY written scripture.
Quote:
It was through this regeneration that believers were given the mind of Christ in order to "see" the spiritual realities in Christ.
It was through knowing and interacting with Jesus that they saw and understood the TRUE NATURE of God . . . NOT through any moldy scripture "written in ink."
Quote:
1 Corinthians 1:14 teaches that the natural man (the man under the curse of the Old Covenant) cannot receive the things of Spirit of God (the heavenly things), neither can he know them because of their spiritually discernment. But on the flipside, however, the New Covenant man has understanding of the things of Christ:
FROM knowing Christ and His nature.
Quote:
1 Corinthians 2:15-16 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

In this verse Paul explains those that do understand the spiritual things of God, i.e., the things previously hidden from the foundation of the world...see 1 Corinthians 2:7. As opposed to those under the Old Covenant, those under the New Covenant have been given the spiritual understanding of the person and work of Christ and that He is the fulfillment of all of the promises in the OT.
IT is entirely from knowing and interacting with the true nature of Christ that they understood the true nature of God.
Quote:
That is having the mind of Christ.
Using the Spirit of Christ and His loving and accepting nature is the way to evaluate everything using the "mind of Christ" . . . not moldy words "writtten in ink" under the veil of ignorance. THAT is the CONTEXT that MUST be applied to ALL scripture.
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Mystic,

Christ is the scriptures. Christ is everything. Christ is the fulfillment of God's words....the holy scriptures.
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