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Old 04-23-2010, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,461 posts, read 31,862,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
This is where we part ways. God would never give His gifts to a sinner. Judas was indeed saved at one time, but then he fell. Notice in Acts 1:25

[25] ..., from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

You have to be in grace in order to fall from grace. If Judas was never in grace, then he could not have fallen by transgression.
Some seem to have had the ability to at least cast out demons, yet Christ told them to get lost because they were fake.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt 7:15-23)

 
Old 04-23-2010, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,461 posts, read 31,862,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airō View Post
We also have Matthew 7:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Jesus never knew Judas.
You beat me to it.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 12:40 PM
 
5,408 posts, read 4,658,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airō View Post
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'.
These are not people with the real gifts of the Spirit, but they are frauds and those who think they have God's gifts. Judas, on the other hand, clearly had the gifts because at that time he was right with God. The devil got to him, and he fell. So it is with any child of God. The only assurance we have is to be saved and to remain saved through obedience.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 12:47 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
These are not people with the real gifts of the Spirit, but they are frauds and those who think they have God's gifts. Judas, on the other hand, clearly had the gifts because at that time he was right with God. The devil got to him, and he fell. So it is with any child of God. The only assurance we have is to be saved and to remain saved through obedience.
What constitutes a man being right with God?
 
Old 04-23-2010, 12:53 PM
 
162 posts, read 177,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
What constitutes a man being right with God?
works, cough, er, self-righteousness.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 01:01 PM
 
162 posts, read 177,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
These are not people with the real gifts of the Spirit, but they are frauds and those who think they have God's gifts. Judas, on the other hand, clearly had the gifts because at that time he was right with God. The devil got to him, and he fell. So it is with any child of God. The only assurance we have is to be saved and to remain saved through obedience.
You're adding to the Scriptures. You have to do some major twisting to say Judas does not fit in the false prophets of Matthew 7. Scripture says nothing about the people in Matthew 7 not having the ability to cast out demons.

Do you understand what the son of perdition means?
 
Old 04-23-2010, 01:02 PM
 
5,408 posts, read 4,658,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
What constitutes a man being right with God?
If we want to be assured of our salvation, we can examine ourselves. Some people may call these works, but God says it is our reasonable service.

Rom.12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Colossians 3:9-10 - ...seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

Ephesians 4:24 - And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness

Tit.2
[7] In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
[8] Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
[9] Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
[10] Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
[11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
[13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[15] These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,461 posts, read 31,862,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airō View Post
Thank you, brother. I've seen "UR" mentioned before, what does that mean? At any rate, yes, it's a blessing when we can discuss these things in truth and love.
UR is a belief that everyone is saved without the need to be born again and accept Christ into your life. Moderator cut: off topic

Last edited by Miss Blue; 04-26-2010 at 03:45 PM..
 
Old 04-23-2010, 01:18 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airō View Post
works, cough, er, self-righteousness.
This is my point. Judas was never right with God and also is one of two people who are entered by Satan in scripture. It never says Satan got to Judas, but it does say he entered him. The other person entered is the anti-Christ. Judas did not fall, but was fallen as is every other person.

A Christian can not lose salvation as this would mean God loses what he claims. But a person can claim christianity and never be of it, thus proving themselves false. God clearly knows what is His and what is not. This is why in the modern age many go to the banner of having God in school, but balk at having Christ!

In short there are those who walk among us (even some who taste of the Spirit), but they have left us, because they never were of us. If they had been of us they would not have left us. Where is this in scripture?

1 John 2:19 They went out from us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Notice the italics which are not of my emphasis, but by scriptural emphasis. There are those who have come in it, but it is displayed that they themselves have went out. They take joy in the Spirit for awhile and maybe even manifest some outward ability, but it is only fleeting. As with Judas they are only with us for awhile.
 
Old 04-23-2010, 01:25 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,161 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
If we want to be assured of our salvation, we can examine ourselves. Some people may call these works, but God says it is our reasonable service.

Rom.12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Colossians 3:9-10 - ...seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

Ephesians 4:24 - And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness

Tit.2
[7] In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
[8] Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
[9] Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
[10] Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
[11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
[13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[15] These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
In this you are making a subtle error it is not the Christian who preforms these actions, but Christ who lives thru us. Even an unbeliever can do works, but only a Christian manifests this change or more correctly it is being called "being born again". Not one work we do makes us right with God, but faith in Christ redeems us to God. A Christian is saved by belief and faith in Christ and that which does not believe is condemned. In Christ the Christian lives, outside of Christ the unbeliever is condemned.

Thus a Christian can not fall and Judas did not fall. He never was of us or by us. We can not be taken from disorder in sin, made to order in Christ, just to fall back to disorder. It is not possible as God claimed those He has placed in His order.
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