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Old 04-16-2010, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,573,110 times
Reputation: 1584

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Quote:
Originally Posted by numbskull View Post
Good for you. The ego wants lots of nice things i.e. clothes, cars, homes...and it seems to me(an opinion just like all of ya'lls) that wanting a better, higher place in the after life is exactly what those men who here on Earth(which you seem to have a problem with, yet have no problem if God is the progenitor of this system) are copying... but i'm sure this is just going to get lost in the sea of semantics and speculations(look I can foretell the future,also)...
I agree with Numbskull on this. It is a carnal mindset that makes us think the heavenly realm will be like the system of this present world. Surely heaven is a spiritual place.
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Old 04-17-2010, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Answer
1. When the judge pronounces his verdict, it will based on faith.

Heavenly Father says
"But my righteous one will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."

Romans 3:22
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Romans 5:1
[ Peace and Joy ] Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

because of what we have faith in (namely Jesus)....God see's us now as just, holy, perfect. Therefore we are now perfect.

However, the one who places his hope in their own works, no longer has faith. They too will be judged according to their works. And what God see's is imperfect .And as such, you're not holy, perfect or just to God and will be judged, condemned forever in hell ("outer darkness").
____________________________________

As far as making a difference on how we live.....it is on how you mean that.

Being you're a Mormon and proving yourself worthy is why you believe people are here on earth....no.

But the punishment for in hell (outer darkness) will be. It will be more bearable for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, Tyre and Sidon than those who had the word proclaimed and refuse.

But knowing the Mormon setup\response to this....God's Word (which is only the Bible) also says that this doesn't mean we can abuse God's free gift.

Romans 6:1,2
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?......By no means!

Anybody is fooling themself if they think that God will let "the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers, the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars, everyone who loves and practices falsehood, self-seeking, and who reject the truth" into heaven.
Faith in what?
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Old 04-17-2010, 10:06 AM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,177,049 times
Reputation: 151
Heaven was not made for you, to satisfy your here sense of joy etc (that Copeland guy thinks him and his ol' lady are going to cruise around the world and travel-I wonder who he thinks will make up his room and mix margaritas?). You were "bought" for a purpose to perform the eternal tasks that will be yours that you were made for; so it is individualized as well as a society (the church), but not to be conformed to your present desires.
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Old 04-17-2010, 08:03 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,819,724 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
How about we make a deal, twin.spin. I'll tell people what my church teaches and you tell people what your church teaches. Trust me, I don't need your help to tell me what I believe.
Jesus taught that.... When the judge pronounces his verdict, it will based on faith.

Heavenly Father says
"But my righteous one will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."

Romans 3:22
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Romans 5:1
[ Peace and Joy ] Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

because of what we have faith in (namely Jesus)....God see's us now as just, holy, perfect. Therefore we are now perfect.

However, the one who places his hope in their own works, no longer has faith. They too will be judged according to their works. And what God see's is imperfect. And as such, you're not holy, perfect or just to God and will be judged, condemned forever in hell
__________________________________________________ ___

About your deal:
It would be great if you were to do that.

The only time I "help" you is when your church offical publications (which should be quotable) conflicts your posts.
But like I said, I don't care to engage in useless conversations anymore.

Most people are unaware that the KJV (LDS version) contains excerpts from the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible and has a Bible Dictionary that (at times) gives insight into some very unique teachings of Mormonism.

"offical" as in .....



LDS Scriptures
  • BoM
  • D&C
  • The Holy Bible...the LDS edition 1987
LDS Church Manuals
  • Achieving A Celestial Marriage 1976
  • BoM Student Manual
  • D&C Student Manual
  • Doctrines of the Gospel
  • Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood (A&B)
  • From You to Your Ancestors
  • Gospel Princibles
  • The Latter Day Saint Women (A&B)
  • Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostes
  • Melchizedek Priesthood Leadership Handbook (and study guides)
  • Missionary Guide (Training for Missionaries)
  • Relief Society Handbook (and study guides)
  • Scouting Handbook
  • Sharing the Gospel
  • Stake Mission Handbook
  • Sunday School Handbook
  • Teachings of the Living Prophets
  • Temple Preparation Seminar Discussions
  • Walk in His Ways (A & B)

Last edited by twin.spin; 04-17-2010 at 08:27 PM..
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Old 04-17-2010, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,282 posts, read 20,899,360 times
Reputation: 9964
Less than twelve hours ago, twin.spin said:
Quote:
I have decided to not activly engage any more Mormons in City-data. There are better ways out to reach them, people who are looking for the truth.
And look! Here he is again. Does that mean twin.spin lied? What happens to people who lie? They go to Hell!!!!!

Quote:
The only time I "help" you is when your church offical publications (which should be quotable) conflicts your posts.
I don't need your "help" EVER. And I never contradict the official doctrines of my Church.

Quote:
But like I said, I don't care to engage in useless conversations anymore.
And yet here you are again, doing just that!

Quote:
Most people are unaware that the KJV (LDS version) contains excerpts from the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible and has a Bible Dictionary that (at times) gives insight into some very unique teachings of Mormonism.
They are footnotes, twin.spin. Do you know what a footnote is? So what if our own edition contains footnotes! The text is identical to every other KJV in the world. There is not one word that differs.

Quote:
"offical" as in ...



LDS Scriptures
  • BoM
  • D&C
  • The Holy Bible...the LDS edition 1987
You forgot the Pearl of Great Price.
Quote:
  • Achieving A Celestial Marriage 1976
  • BoM Student Manual
  • D&C Student Manual
  • Doctrines of the Gospel
  • Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood (A&B)
  • From You to Your Ancestors
  • Gospel Princibles
  • The Latter Day Saint Women (A&B)
  • Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostes
  • Melchizedek Priesthood Leadership Handbook (and study guides)
  • Missionary Guide (Training for Missionaries)
  • Relief Society Handbook (and study guides)
  • Scouting Handbook
  • Sharing the Gospel
  • Stake Mission Handbook
  • Sunday School Handbook
  • Teachings of the Living Prophets
  • Temple Preparation Seminar Discussions
  • Walk in His Ways (A & B)
Holy cow! None of these are part of the LDS canon! I've never even heard of some of them and I've been a member of the Church for 61 years. What in Heaven's name is your problem? Are you completely incapable of sticking to a topic? Now get back on the topic of my OP or quit responding to my posts altogether -- like you said you were going to and clearly lied about doing.
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Old 04-18-2010, 12:20 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 1,082,049 times
Reputation: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
All Christians want to go to Heaven, whether they figure it's just going to be them as a few close friends or the whole of God's creation. When you think of the afterlife, do you see Heaven as a kind of One-Size-Fits-All kind of place where everyone who actually made it will all find themselves in exactly the same circumstances?

Here's what I'm getting at: On one hand, consider a Christian you've always admired. I'll use Mother Theresa as my example. She lived her life in service to God and her fellow men. She certainly understood the Savior's commandment to love one another and to treat all human beings with respect and dignity. Now think of someone you know who really doesn't strike you as a very good person. When it comes to Christianity, this person is more than willing to talk the talk. He's just not all that good at walking the walk. Anyway, for some reason, God, in His mercy, allows this person to enter Heaven, right along with you and everybody else.

In the end, do you think it's really going to matter how we lived, as long as we get into Heaven? Or is Mother Theresa (or someone else, if you don't admire her as much as I do) going to have a greater reward in Heaven than the person you were kind of surprised to see there?

1. If you think Heaven's going to be the same for everyone who ends up there, what do you think Jesus meant when He said He was going to "judge every man according to his works"?

2. If you think Heaven's going to be different and that greater obedience, faithfulness, and righteousness on Earth are going to result in greater rewards in Heaven, how do you believe those rewards will differ from person to person?
Hi Katzpur....I also do not believe in a One Size Fits All Heaven. I believe that in order for all of us to live in harmony with one another there is still a lot of growing towards God to be done on the other side and most likely some reaping to be done as well. I believe that we are judged when we die and we find our place either in a a level of heaven or a level of darkness..... we reap what we sow here but I still believe there is still more growing and learning to do on the other side.

Does your faith believe that once you are judged that you go to a level of heaven or a level of darkness and that is your final home or can you move around ? I also believe that eventually all will be out of darkness but not all will inhabit the highest of celestial heavens. The path is narrow to the highest heavens.
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Old 04-18-2010, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,282 posts, read 20,899,360 times
Reputation: 9964
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
I don't have any idea, for these are things yet to come. I don't know about anyone else, but for me, (call me selfish... if you must) just being in His presence would truly be enough for me. So today, I try to concentrate on trying to get everybody that I know of there...You understand?
Not entirely. See I think you're making an assumption that may not be correct. If we will be rewarded for our works, as Jesus said would be the case, maybe one of the greatest rewards we could be given would be to actually be in God's presence. Maybe not everyone in Heaven will actually be in His presence. Maybe Heaven is a wonderful place where everybody is happy and feels God's love, but maybe not everyone there will actually be in His presence. (I'm just surmising on what the rewards Jesus was referring to.)
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Old 04-18-2010, 09:00 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,753,636 times
Reputation: 58198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Not entirely. See I think you're making an assumption that may not be correct. If we will be rewarded for our works, as Jesus said would be the case, maybe one of the greatest rewards we could be given would be to actually be in God's presence. Maybe not everyone in Heaven will actually be in His presence. Maybe Heaven is a wonderful place where everybody is happy and feels God's love, but maybe not everyone there will actually be in His presence. (I'm just surmising on what the rewards Jesus was referring to.)
I'm just wondering if it will be like it is here on earth. Some who were first here will be the last, and the last the first like the Bible says. IOW, some who thought they were God's great servants here (Matthew 7:22) will find themselves in servant's positions in heaven. And those who were small in man's eyes will find themselves living in the grandest mansions and in the presence of our Holy God.....oh hallelujah!!
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Old 04-18-2010, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,282 posts, read 20,899,360 times
Reputation: 9964
Quote:
Originally Posted by SisterKat View Post
Hi Katzpur....I also do not believe in a One Size Fits All Heaven. I believe that in order for all of us to live in harmony with one another there is still a lot of growing towards God to be done on the other side and most likely some reaping to be done as well. I believe that we are judged when we die and we find our place either in a a level of heaven or a level of darkness..... we reap what we sow here but I still believe there is still more growing and learning to do on the other side.
I definitely believe there is more growing and learning to do on the other side, but I don't believe we actually go to Heaven immediately after we die. Instead, I believe that we will go to the spirit world, where we (as spirits, of course) will remain until we are resurrected. That's where I believe most of our additional growing and learning will take place. That's where I believe that people who never heard the gospel on earth will be able to hear it, and where all of us will increase in understanding and knowledge.

Quote:
Does your faith believe that once you are judged that you go to a level of heaven or a level of darkness and that is your final home or can you move around ?
Well, we don't believe in levels of darkness. We just believe in one place where the glory of God will not be felt at all. We refer to that as "Outer Darkness." It's where the devil and his angels will go, and those who commited the unforgivable sin (there will be very, very few people who we believe fall into this category). As for everybody else, we believe that after the Last Judgment, we will each receive either a Telestial, a Terrestrial or a Celestial glory and spend eternity in one of these kingdoms of Heaven. We believe that those in the lowest and middle kingdoms (or degees of glory) will remain there for eterntiy, and will be able to progress up to a point, but not beyond the confines of the kingdom they inherited when the were judged. Those in the Celestial Kingdom will be able to progress without any restrictions at all. This is what we refer to as "the Fulness of Salvation or Exaltation in the Celestial Kingom."

Quote:
I also believe that eventually all will be out of darkness but not all will inhabit the highest of celestial heavens. The path is narrow to the highest heavens.
That's very interesting, SisterKat. I'm curious as to whether this is an official doctrine of your church, or just something you have come to believe as you've studied the scriptures and prayed. (I'm just guessing, both from your name and from some of the things you've said in the past, that you're Roman Catholic. Is that right?)

I also think you hit the nail on the head when you say that the path is narrow to the highest heavens. I think most Christians Matthew 7:14 as referring to Heaven, period. It appears that you and I see it as referring to the highest part of Heaven.

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
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Old 04-18-2010, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Way,Way Up On The Old East Coast
2,179 posts, read 1,671,787 times
Reputation: 1072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Less than twelve hours ago, twin.spin said:

And look! Here he is again. Does that mean twin.spin lied? What happens to people who lie? They go to Hell!!!!!

I don't need your "help" EVER. And I never contradict the official doctrines of my Church.

And yet here you are again, doing just that!

They are footnotes, twin.spin. Do you know what a footnote is? So what if our own edition contains footnotes! The text is identical to every other KJV in the world. There is not one word that differs.

You forgot the Pearl of Great Price.Holy cow! None of these are part of the LDS canon! I've never even heard of some of them and I've been a member of the Church for 61 years. What in Heaven's name is your problem? Are you completely incapable of sticking to a topic? Now get back on the topic of my OP or quit responding to my posts altogether -- like you said you were going to and clearly lied about doing.
Katzpur !!! ... A+ For Outstanding Effort !

Indeed .... You try so very hard to maintain the integrity of your thread topic ! There are of course instances such as this one where it is practically impossible to do so ..... and it's truly a pitiful shame.

You possess a great deal of exceptional and remarkably accurate LDS wisdom for those of us here on CDF if we would but only listen !

Your many excellent LDS discourses over the last few years have truly allowed me to develop an extremely favorable and appreciative opinion of the LDS Church and the great folks among it's extensive membership.

Keep up the great work Katzpur and please do not be discouraged by some of the rather obstinate little buddies that appear to inhabit the gloomy backwaters of good old CDF !

Thanks / Old Sgt. Lamar
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