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Old 05-01-2010, 01:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
The word "up" is not there. Harpazo is only "to sieze for one's own possession."

No "up" and no "away." Maybe "caught" but no "up" is with it. Maybe "snatched," but no "away" is with it.
New American Standard Bible; 1 THESS. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Harpazo--Strong's number G726

1) To seize, carry off by force.

2) To seize on, claim for one's self eagerly.

3)To snatch out or away.

The New Greek/English Interlinear New Testament UBS 4th edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition; 1993: 1 Thess. 4:17 Then we the ones living, the ones remaining, together with them will be caught up in clouds to a meeting of(with)the Lord in (the)air and so always with (the)Lord we will be.

Then there are the various translations shown in the link below which translate it as 'caught up.'

1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software the word used in 1 Thess. 14:17 is HARPAGESOMETHA-shall be being snatched (away). Snatched away to where? Snatched away into the clouds which by the way are 'UP.'

You do a disservice to all the many and varied translaters who understand that the word harpazo is properly brought into the English as 'caught up' or 'caught away.'

Quote:
The uses of harpazo in Scripture illustrate it is a different category than DipSinsationalism's "Rapture." Paul was "harpazoed" to the 3rd heaven. He twice says, "Whether in the body or out of the body, I know not." From baptizing the Eunuch, an authority in the Ethiopian Court, Phillip was "harpazoed" 3 days journey to Azotes. The raised dead first, then we that are alive and remain (not already immortal) shall be "harpazoed" together with the Lord in the clouds.

William Hendriksen in his New Testament Commentary, Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew translates Mt 11:12: "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom is pressing forward vigorously, and vigorous men are eagerly taking possession of it." In Greek, the kind of men here is a word that occurs nowhere else in the N.T. They are vigorous and "forceful men," men of courage, fortitude and determination. Here, rather than God seizing us, courageous and determined men eagerly "harpazo" the kingdom of God. That they are "taking possession" of the kingdom is that they harpazo the kingdom. This is the only place a form of harpazo is not used of God, but of men.
The passage that uses the Greek word HARPAZO speaking of the rapture is 1 Thess. 4:13-17 and has been addressed above.

Quote:
"Rapture" is not "simply a technical term," to quote you. It is an UNBIBLICAL term received from the traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect. This is because there are other ideas concerning other matters in Scripture that are wrongly grafted together with harpazo, as well as things completely made up that are stirred into the "rapture" pot.
Just as the word 'Trinity' is not found in the Bible but is a technical term for the three Person's of the Godhead, so too is the word 'Rapture' a technical term for the event spoken of in the Bible as the 'catching up-the Harpazo.'


Quote:
This was fulfilled in the coming of the Holy Ghost upon the Eclessia on the day of Pentecost and whoever since that the Lord has called. From where you left of in the above quote (vs.3) Jesus went on to say that He was going to the Father. This was what He did 40 days after His resurrection and 10 days before Pentecost. When He came into us in Spirit He was receiving us unto Himself to be with Him where He was.

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (John 14:16-17, AV) And He went on to say: "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." (vs.20)

While the first part of Revelation 19 speaks of, "A vast throng in heaven" (vs.1,) there is no statement about the location of the, "vast throng" a little later (in vs.6.)

Revelation 19:1, 6-8 (Concordant Literal Translation)...

1 After these things I hear as it were the loud voice of a vast throng in heaven, saying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power is of our God,

6 And I hear as it were the voice of a vast throng, and as it were the sound of many waters, and as it were the sound of strong thunders, saying, "Hallelujah! for the Lord our God, the Almighty reigns!
7 We may be rejoicing and exulting and will be giving glory to Him, for the wedding of the Lambkin came, and Its bride makes herself ready."
8 And to her it was granted that she may be clothed in clean, resplendent cambric, for the cambric is the just awards of the saints.

However, consider God's description of us now:

Ephesians 2:6; 1:3 (AV)...

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ

Our spirits are raised into the heavenlies with Him and our bodies stand on the earth, His witnesses. We are the wife of the little Lambkin, that holy city descending out of heaven from God! (cf., Revelation 21:2, 10-11) Through us also is the answer to the prayer, "Your will be done, in the earth as it is in the heavens."
To the contrary. John 14:2-3 is indeed about the rapture or resurrection of the church. And I will simply direct readers attention to these commentaries on the matter.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.


Additionally, C. I. Scofield wrote...

(14:3) As a part of this discourse, which has been of comfort to the Church throughout the centuries, the Lord gives a promise of His personal return for His own people, a doctrine that is expanded by the Apostle Paul in 1 Th. 4:13-18. This aspect of Christ's return is to be distinquished from His comng to the earth to establish His kingdom (Rev. 19:11-16).

(New Scofield Reference Edition. footnote for John 14:3, p.1146.)


For those who are interested in learning about the rapture here are some links which will provide you with knowledge...

First, my thread on dispensations. The dispensation of the church is terminated by the pre-Tribulational rapture or resurrection of the church. It is vital to understand this if you are to have a proper understanding of the necessity of the rapture. People who reject the pre-Tribulational rapture of the church also tend to reject the reality of the dispensational nature of God's plan. The above poster is an example of this. Note how in his distain for what is so clearly taught in the scriptures he refers to dispensations as 'DipSinsationalism.'

Dispensations In The Bible



Regarding the Pre-Tribulational Rapture


The Rapture of the Church


The Rapture - 66/40 - K-House

There is an abundance of information in these links which will be helpful to those who want to learn.
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Old 05-01-2010, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
What scriptural basis is there for the idea of the Rapture?
That all depends on what you actually mean by "the Rapture." I don't believe in this doctrine myself, but I do believe in the Second Coming of Christ, and in some of the things associated with the Rapture (at least to the degree I understand it).
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Old 05-02-2010, 03:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
That all depends on what you actually mean by "the Rapture." I don't believe in this doctrine myself, but I do believe in the Second Coming of Christ, and in some of the things associated with the Rapture (at least to the degree I understand it).
Yeah I do realize now that I should have clarified the Secret Rapture.
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Old 05-02-2010, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,267 posts, read 20,872,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Yeah I do realize now that I should have clarified the Secret Rapture.
Okay, well, if it's not too late, you could do that now. My Church doesn't believe in anything called "the Rapture," but we do believe in the Second Coming of Christ. You'd probably have to start at the pre-kindergarten level if you were to explain to me what you meant. I don't know if you want to bother or not.
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,872,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa View Post
The Rapture was already invoked by John Boehner to prevent the passage of Health Care. All the true Christians are gone.
No, Boehner prophesied the Armageddon to begin upon passage of the bill.
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Yes, there is a rapture either in the beginning of the 7 year period, or in the middle of it, before the real suffering begins.

Christ will descend with the spirits of deceased believers and they will be reunited with the living believers who will be snatched up from earth, as well as with their own bodies who are also taken up.
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:36 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
That all depends on what you actually mean by "the Rapture." I don't believe in this doctrine myself, but I do believe in the Second Coming of Christ, and in some of the things associated with the Rapture (at least to the degree I understand it).
Katzpur, just curious what your take is on this:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV (13) But I would not have you to be
ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not,
even as others which have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus
died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring
with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that
we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not
prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the
trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which
are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (18)
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
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Old 05-08-2010, 03:11 AM
 
701 posts, read 658,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Okay, well, if it's not too late, you could do that now. My Church doesn't believe in anything called "the Rapture," but we do believe in the Second Coming of Christ. You'd probably have to start at the pre-kindergarten level if you were to explain to me what you meant. I don't know if you want to bother or not.
Hi Katzpur, I first want to start by apologizing for the long delayed response. I have spent the last week cramming for finals, and as a result have not posted anything on the forums in some time.

the reason I simply referred to "the rapture" in my OP was because that term has gain such popularity that most people that I have encountered understand that it is the belief in a "secret" rapture. The word rapture in and of itself simply means to be caught up, which the bible makes clear will happen at the second coming of Christ, but as I stated this word rapture has been so identified with the "secret" rapture that I forgot to make the distinction in the OP.

As to the second coming of Christ. the bible makes several things very clear.

1. It will not be a secret.

Matthew 24:30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Matthew 24:27 “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

2. It will be a very audible event.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”

1 Corinthians 15:52 “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

3. It will be quite visible.

Revelation 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

Matthew 24:30 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

4. Christ second coming will destroy the earth as we know it.

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

Revelation 6:14 “And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”

These scriptures make it quite clear that there is nothing secretive about Christ's second coming. This site Secret Rapture Truth - Bible Prophecy gives a much deeper insight into the truth of this doctrine, or lack thereof I should say. 2 of the key tent poles that this "secret" rapture doctrine hangs on are:

1. the unbiblical doctrine of a seven year period of tribulation. (not saying there won't be a time of tribulation, just saying that there is nothing in scripture stating how long it will last)

2. the belief that a secular antichrist figure is who is being referenced in 2 Thess. 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" The antichrist figure represented here is not of a secular nature but one of an apostate religious nature.

3. The assumption that Christ will reign on earth, during the Millennium. Rest assured, scripture does make clear that Christ will set up an everlasting kingdom on earth that will never be destroyed, however nowhere in scripture does it state this will happen prior to the millennium. Another great site with info on the subject is this one The 1000 Year Millennium Bible Truth

I hope that I have articulated all of this properly and please let me know if there is anything else you would like me to explain regarding my beliefs. It is never a bother dialoguing with fellow Christians. God Bless.
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Old 05-08-2010, 12:28 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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I do still believe in a Rapture, the removal of the "church" before the 7 year tribulation. HalfNelson, there is plenty of scripture to support a Rapture of the church, as well as a 7 year tribulation period. It's just one of those things that you either adhere to, or you don't.

Rapture Ready - Rapture resource for the end times
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Old 05-08-2010, 06:04 PM
 
701 posts, read 658,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
I do still believe in a Rapture, the removal of the "church" before the 7 year tribulation. HalfNelson, there is plenty of scripture to support a Rapture of the church, as well as a 7 year tribulation period. It's just one of those things that you either adhere to, or you don't.

Rapture Ready - Rapture resource for the end times
Ilene, can you please provide for me a single biblical text that, states either 1. the rapture will be secret, or 2. the rapture will be before a 7 year tribulation?

Or a single text that states there will be a "seven year" tribulation. The links that I provided take you to clear, concise, scriptural facts concerning these matters. That rapture ready site is a maze of confusion.
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