U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-24-2010, 11:21 AM
 
1 posts, read 1,313 times
Reputation: 10

Advertisements

See the following sites
When Will the Rapture Occur?

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQy_e_hGYQI]YouTube - When Will the Rapture Occur? (Part 1 of 3).[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW7ZJZ0K4pc&feature=related]YouTube - When Will the Rapture Occur? (Part 2 of 3).[/url]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQy_e_hGYQI&feature=related]YouTube - When Will the Rapture Occur? (Part 1 of 3).[/url]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-25-2010, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,247 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Rapture=HARPAZIO=caught up.

1 Thes.4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up-harpazo together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

HARPAGESOMETHA-shall be snatched away.
The word "up" is not there. No "up" and no "away." Maybe "caught" but no "up" is with it. Maybe "snatched," but no "away" is with it. Harpazo is only "to sieze for one's own possession."

The uses of harpazo in Scripture illustrate it is a different category than DipSinsationalism's "Rapture." Paul was "harpazoed" to the 3rd heaven. He twice says, "Whether in the body or out of the body, I know not." From baptizing the Eunuch, an authority in the Ethiopian Court, Phillip was "harpazoed" 3 days journey to Azotes. The raised dead first, then we that are alive and remain (not already immortal) shall be "harpazoed" together with the Lord in the clouds.

William Hendriksen in his New Testament Commentary, Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew translates Mt 11:12: "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom is pressing forward vigorously, and vigorous men are eagerly taking possession of it." In Greek, the kind of men here is a word that occurs nowhere else in the N.T. They are vigorous and "forceful men," men of courage, fortitude and determination. Here, rather than God seizing us, courageous and determined men eagerly "harpazo" the kingdom of God. That they are "taking possession" of the kingdom is that they harpazo the kingdom. This is the only place a form of harpazo is not used of God, but of men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
New American Standard Bible; 1 THESS. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Harpazo--Strong's number G726

1) To seize, carry off by force.

2) To seize on, claim for one's self eagerly.

3)To snatch out or away.

The New Greek/English Interlinear New Testament UBS 4th edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition; 1993: 1 Thess. 4:17 Then we the ones living, the ones remaining, together with them will be caught up in clouds to a meeting of(with)the Lord in (the)air and so always with (the)Lord we will be.

Then there are the various translations shown in the link below which translate it as 'caught up.'

1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software the word used in 1 Thess. 4:17 is HARPAGESOMETHA-shall be being snatched (away). Snatched away to where? Snatched away into the clouds which by the way are 'UP.'

You do a disservice to all the many and varied translaters who understand that the word harpazo is properly brought into the English as 'caught up' or 'caught away.'
We should be most concerned we do no disservice to The Word of The Lord. In many instances the sad tale of true life stories and motives of translators raises our awareness to the need to be circumspect here as in any other situation in our walk.

Then 1899 we 2249 which 3588 are alive 2198 [and] remain 4035 shall be caught up 726 together 260 with 4862 them 846 in 1722 the clouds 3507, to 1519 meet 529 the Lord 2962 in 1519 the air 109: and 2532 so 3779 shall we 2071 0 ever 3842 be 2071 with 4862 the Lord 2962.

Harpazo--Strong's number G726

1) To seize, carry off by force.

2) To seize on, claim for one's self eagerly.

3)To snatch out or away.

This #G726 is NOT G305ἀναβαίνω anabainō: "Up" This was to what I was referring when I said there is no "up" and there is no "away." I perhaps failed to make clear enough that these disinct Greek words are NOT in the original text upon which the translation is based. That some translators do add these words in English is clear. That does not add them to the Greek New Testament.

G520ἀπάγω apagō lead away, lead, put to death, bring, take away, carry away
G522ἀπαίρω apairō take away, take
G3911παραφέρω parapherō take away, remove
G4014περιαιρέω periaireō take away, take up
G667ἀποφέρω apopherō carry away, carry, bring
G854ἀφανισμός aphanismos vanish awayng
...and there are many other such words that may include "away" in translation.

Including: G726ἁρπάζω harpazō catch up, take by force, catch away, pluck, catch, pull

But notice, it is not as a primary meaning. Among the words for G726ἁρπάζω harpazō in this "usage" list, the idea of "seize for one's own possession" is primary. In certain contexts the translator adds words to make more readable English or to conform to a doctrinal prior commitment. Using lexicons or a Theological Dictionary of Greek rather than how translators have used it can be closer to the truth.

All I can do for now in matters like this is commend you to a more in depth study which I am not going to do for you here. You bear a responsibility to "...work out 2716 your own 1438 salvation 4991 with 3326 fear 5401 and 2532 trembling 5156.
For 1063 it is 2076 God 2316 which 3588 worketh 1754 in 1722 you 5213 both 2532 to will 2309 and 2532 to do 1754 of 5228 [his] good pleasure 2107" (Philippians 2:12-12)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2010, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,247 times
Reputation: 204
I should add that the reason this understanding of harpazo is important, along with those other things related to what we are expecting to happen to us by the working of the Holy Spirit, is because what God does is by faith. "Without faith it is impossible to please God." If we have a mistaken hope, if we believe wrong, it has to be ironed out in order for our metamorphosis to proceed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2010, 12:23 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,550,724 times
Reputation: 4461
The sad thing about the rapture doctrine is the church is ignoring the charge we've been given - dying to self and being conformed into His image - and just being content to slug through this life on the hope that it'll end soon.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-26-2010, 01:46 AM
 
20,297 posts, read 15,638,239 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
The word "up" is not there. No "up" and no "away." Maybe "caught" but no "up" is with it. Maybe "snatched," but no "away" is with it. Harpazo is only "to sieze for one's own possession."

The uses of harpazo in Scripture illustrate it is a different category than DipSinsationalism's "Rapture." Paul was "harpazoed" to the 3rd heaven. He twice says, "Whether in the body or out of the body, I know not." From baptizing the Eunuch, an authority in the Ethiopian Court, Phillip was "harpazoed" 3 days journey to Azotes. The raised dead first, then we that are alive and remain (not already immortal) shall be "harpazoed" together with the Lord in the clouds.

William Hendriksen in his New Testament Commentary, Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew translates Mt 11:12: "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom is pressing forward vigorously, and vigorous men are eagerly taking possession of it." In Greek, the kind of men here is a word that occurs nowhere else in the N.T. They are vigorous and "forceful men," men of courage, fortitude and determination. Here, rather than God seizing us, courageous and determined men eagerly "harpazo" the kingdom of God. That they are "taking possession" of the kingdom is that they harpazo the kingdom. This is the only place a form of harpazo is not used of God, but of men.


We should be most concerned we do no disservice to The Word of The Lord. In many instances the sad tale of true life stories and motives of translators raises our awareness to the need to be circumspect here as in any other situation in our walk.

Then 1899 we 2249 which 3588 are alive 2198 [and] remain 4035 shall be caught up 726 together 260 with 4862 them 846 in 1722 the clouds 3507, to 1519 meet 529 the Lord 2962 in 1519 the air 109: and 2532 so 3779 shall we 2071 0 ever 3842 be 2071 with 4862 the Lord 2962.

Harpazo--Strong's number G726

1) To seize, carry off by force.

2) To seize on, claim for one's self eagerly.

3)To snatch out or away.

This #G726 is NOT G305ἀναβαίνω anabainō: "Up" This was to what I was referring when I said there is no "up" and there is no "away." I perhaps failed to make clear enough that these disinct Greek words are NOT in the original text upon which the translation is based. That some translators do add these words in English is clear. That does not add them to the Greek New Testament.

G520ἀπάγω apagō lead away, lead, put to death, bring, take away, carry away
G522ἀπαίρω apairō take away, take
G3911παραφέρω parapherō take away, remove
G4014περιαιρέω periaireō take away, take up
G667ἀποφέρω apopherō carry away, carry, bring
G854ἀφανισμός aphanismos vanish awayng
...and there are many other such words that may include "away" in translation.

Including: G726ἁρπάζω harpazō catch up, take by force, catch away, pluck, catch, pull

But notice, it is not as a primary meaning. Among the words for G726ἁρπάζω harpazō in this "usage" list, the idea of "seize for one's own possession" is primary. In certain contexts the translator adds words to make more readable English or to conform to a doctrinal prior commitment. Using lexicons or a Theological Dictionary of Greek rather than how translators have used it can be closer to the truth.

All I can do for now in matters like this is commend you to a more in depth study which I am not going to do for you here. You bear a responsibility to "...work out 2716 your own 1438 salvation 4991 with 3326 fear 5401 and 2532 trembling 5156.
For 1063 it is 2076 God 2316 which 3588 worketh 1754 in 1722 you 5213 both 2532 to will 2309 and 2532 to do 1754 of 5228 [his] good pleasure 2107" (Philippians 2:12-12)
You can keep your 'commends' to yourself. You don't know what you are talking about. You reject the dispensational nature of God's plan and therefore you don't have a chance of understanding the necessity of the rapture.

You keep making an issue over the words 'up'. And 'away.'

It's only good English to add the word 'up' as the translators did. Believers are being caught up into the clouds in the air. Therefore UP. It's that simple.

1 Thess 4:17 Then we the ones living, the ones remaining together with them will be caught up in clouds to a meeting of(with)the Lord in the air, and so always with the lord we will be.



Harpazo Strong's number G726.


Printed from the Blue Letter Bible
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lexicon Results Strong's G726 - harpazō ἁρπάζω
Transliteration
harpazō
Pronunciation

här-pä'-zō (Key)


Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

From a derivative of αἱρέω (G138)

TDNT Reference
1:472,80
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away


Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 13 AV — catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now. Again. For those who are interested. Here is my thread on dispensations which provides a good introduction to the subject.

Dispensations In The Bible
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-27-2010, 05:21 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,550,724 times
Reputation: 4461
Natural or spiritual...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-05-2010, 04:05 PM
 
488 posts, read 868,726 times
Reputation: 168
To everybody.
The Rapture is REAL! It will happen very very soon. It is not only confirmed by the holy spirit and written in the Holy Bible but many people had dreams and visions about it, too!
If you are a born-again Christian and obey God's word, you have nothing to be afraid of.
Please don't let anyone deceive you!
Only those Christians deny the rapture who would rather stay on Earth continuing their normal life such as gaining money, enjoying the pleasures of life. They don't want Jesus to "interrupt" their beloved earthly days.

WE MUST PRAY TO ACCOUNT WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL HELL ON EARTH THAT MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS!

Maranatha!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2010, 02:44 AM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,400,471 times
Reputation: 1802
I find it funny that pre-tribers constantly think that God's purpose in the rapture is that Christians can escape the Tribulation. This is odd since the very verses that they quote in I Thess.4:13-17 could not be further from the truth and absent of any such thing. I suspect this is because of the incesant and perpetual blitz of pre-trib teachers and the books which they pump out every other month.

The above verses do not even mention a tribulation. In fact the context of those verses are the return of Christ, the resurrection, and the order in which one is resurrected - the dead in Christ rise first then we who are alive and remain shall be caugth up with them. That is we are resurrected with them at the return of the Lord. Therefore, the purpose of the 'rapture' is the resurrection for those who happen to be alive when Christ returns - it is the resurrection of those that are still living at the Lord's coming.

This is the 1st resurrection and the 2nd coming - there is no need to invent a coming of the Lord prior to the 2nd coming nor a resurrection prior to the 1st resurrection. The pretribers have transformed a passage that is about the hope of resurrection of those in Christ into an escape clause so that they will not have suffer in the Tribulation even though I Thess.4:13-17 speak nothing of this.

It is pretty simple - there is going to be a living remnant in Christ when the Lord returns and they will be resurrected just like their loved ones who have died in Christ only they will not precede them in being resurrected. This is the hope that Paul talks about (verse 13 - Christ in you the hope of glory (the resurrection of the body)) not the hope that you will escape the tribulation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2010, 11:45 PM
 
1,194 posts, read 735,214 times
Reputation: 122
Default The Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
What scriptural basis is there for the idea of the Rapture?
If there was ever any scriptural basis for this idea called the "rapture," the adversary of our souls would have no need for ministering a defense plan. The Blessings of The Eternal One bring us to the end of ourselves...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-07-2010, 09:55 AM
 
910 posts, read 1,043,029 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I've given you accurate information. If the fact that the raptured church is in Heaven in Revelation 19:7-8 doesn't cause any lights to come on then nothing else will either. The rapture and the Second Advent are two separate events.The Tribulation is indeed a seven year time span which separates the two. It is the last seven years remaining to the age of Israel. Read the thread I just posted on the Olivet Discourse.

Why do folks read scripture and give a private interpretation? Nowhere in 7-8, does it indicate a raptured church in heaven. If I may ask, why would there be a "church " in heaven? Have we forgotten our Lord's prayer... "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as in heaven"? Why would the same person who offered this prayer now cause you to rapture to heaven? A guy who in his lifetime was always preaching about the coming of his Father's Kingdom? Guys, get real.. cmon get real!!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top