U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-17-2010, 11:09 PM
 
701 posts, read 658,620 times
Reputation: 128

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Refer to my thread on the Mosaic Law, the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath.

The Mosaic Law; The Ten Commandments; The Sabbath

Sorry, but I must say that your assertions are off base. Not sure where to begin but I'll start with the notion of the 10 (as I will refer to the 10 commandments from now on) as only applying to the Jews. The first 4 deal with how we are to love God with all our heart and the last 6 are about how we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. You asserted that the 4th only dealt with the jews and was not applicable before their exodus from Egypt yet you also state that God did sanctify the 7th day during the week of creation. My question is at what point in time has the 7th day of the week ever ceased to be Holy? Go though the creation week and you will find that everything that came into existence then still exists today, i.e. light, water, plants, sun/moon, birds, and mankind. Why wouldn't the sabbath still exist? does God ask for our obedience today? If so, what are we to obey, if not a law?

I will say that the 10 were given to the Israelites but that doesn't mean they were only applicable to the Israelites. Who else was God going to give His law to? The Egyptians? The Canaanites? These people didn't believe in Him so no He was going to entrust them with it. The Israelites received GOD's law, because they were His people. His law has always been for His people. Did God have people back in the day who were not of the blood of Abraham but exhibited the faith of Abraham? Yes, and so those people were then considered His. Who are God's people today? According to the bible they are those that have the faith of Abraham not necessarily the blood of Abraham. They are those that believe in the truth of Christ. The Israelites believed in the truth of Christ(that he would come) as well.

Most of Protestant Christianity today seems to think that if you believe a Christian must keep the 10 then your are legalistic (implying that you believe you are saved by keeping the law), however they forget to realize that nobody was ever saved by keeping the law. It has always been our faith in Christ that has saved mankind. Pre-Calvary it was faith that He would come, and Post-Calvary it is faith that He has come, and the role of the 10 has always been the same throughout.

When has the violation, of any of these, ever been acceptable to God?

1st: You shall have no other gods before me. - So, prior to Sinai, it was ok to have other gods above God?

2nd: You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. - Prior to Sinai it was ok to make idols and worship them?

3rd: You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. - Prior to Sinai, it was acceptable to God for us to take His name in vain?

4th: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Prior to Sinai, was it ok to not keep the day Holy? Why start a commandment with REMEMBER, if God did not know that it was and would be forgotten?

5th: Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you. - Prior to Sinai, it was alright with God for you to dishonor your Father/Mother? (talk to Noah's sons about that one)

6th: You shall not murder. - Prior to Sinai, are you beginning to see my point?

7th: You shall not commit adultery. - Prior to Sinai, or after Calvary are any of these things ever acceptable in God's eyes?

8th: You shall not steal. - What is it, about any one of these, that speaks to an isolated period in time?

9th: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - What part of "I will write my law on your heart" is God going to leave out?

10th: You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.” - Why would God carve it all in stone if it wasn't to be as eternal as He is?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-17-2010, 11:25 PM
 
701 posts, read 658,620 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Do you realize what Romans 3:20 is saying? It does not help your case. No one will be declared righteous by observing the law.

When was anyone (except Christ) ever declared righteous by observing the law? No one. So, then why was it ever given? Clearly it was never a list of what someone must do in order to be saved. So, then what was its purpose. Are we ever saved by our obedience? No. We are obedient because we are saved. Huge difference and one I don't think many Christians fully understand. Doesn't God ask for our obedience? Or, is He fine with disobedience? What relevance to the words obedience/disobedience have if there is no law? The 10 commandments never have and never will save us from anything. Their purpose has always been to show us what sin is, for sin is simply the transgression of these commandments.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-17-2010, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
When was anyone (except Christ) ever declared righteous by observing the law? No one. So, then why was it ever given? Clearly it was never a list of what someone must do in order to be saved. So, then what was its purpose. Are we ever saved by our obedience? No. We are obedient because we are saved. Huge difference and one I don't think many Christians fully understand. Doesn't God ask for our obedience? Or, is He fine with disobedience? What relevance to the words obedience/disobedience have if there is no law? The 10 commandments never have and never will save us from anything. Their purpose has always been to show us what sin is, for sin is simply the transgression of these commandments.
And by recognizing sin you can learn to avoid it... This is all for the benefit of those around you and yourself.

If it wasn't ever a list of what someone could achieve and thus be saved by... then why the focus on the sabbath?

If your house is on fire do you work to put it out?

Sometimes we need to use common sense.

Col. 2:16-17 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2010, 12:07 AM
 
701 posts, read 658,620 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
And by recognizing sin you can learn to avoid it... This is all for the benefit of those around you and yourself.

If it wasn't ever a list of what someone could achieve and thus be saved by... then why the focus on the sabbath?

If your house is on fire do you work to put it out?

Sometimes we need to use common sense.

Col. 2:16-17 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
What? I ask again, name one person who was ever saved because they kept the Commandments. Not one, which would imply that the 10 were never a means by which anyone was saved. As to the Colossians reference, you must understand that many festivals and "special" days were referred to as sabbaths, but only one day was ever referred to as THE Sabbath. Christ referenced that the Sabbath would still be valid in 70 AD when He cautioned that their flight not be on the Sabbath in Matthew 24:20 "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath." and in Isaiah 66:22,23 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD." here the Bible is clearly talking about a time well past Calvary. Did you read post #11 in thread? What is it about any one of those that a Christian should have a problem with ?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2010, 03:18 AM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,661,748 times
Reputation: 7433
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Sorry, but I must say that your assertions are off base. Not sure where to begin but I'll start with the notion of the 10 (as I will refer to the 10 commandments from now on) as only applying to the Jews. The first 4 deal with how we are to love God with all our heart and the last 6 are about how we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. You asserted that the 4th only dealt with the jews and was not applicable before their exodus from Egypt yet you also state that God did sanctify the 7th day during the week of creation. My question is at what point in time has the 7th day of the week ever ceased to be Holy? Go though the creation week and you will find that everything that came into existence then still exists today, i.e. light, water, plants, sun/moon, birds, and mankind. Why wouldn't the sabbath still exist? does God ask for our obedience today? If so, what are we to obey, if not a law?

I will say that the 10 were given to the Israelites but that doesn't mean they were only applicable to the Israelites. Who else was God going to give His law to? The Egyptians? The Canaanites? These people didn't believe in Him so no He was going to entrust them with it. The Israelites received GOD's law, because they were His people. His law has always been for His people. Did God have people back in the day who were not of the blood of Abraham but exhibited the faith of Abraham? Yes, and so those people were then considered His. Who are God's people today? According to the bible they are those that have the faith of Abraham not necessarily the blood of Abraham. They are those that believe in the truth of Christ. The Israelites believed in the truth of Christ(that he would come) as well.

Most of Protestant Christianity today seems to think that if you believe a Christian must keep the 10 then your are legalistic (implying that you believe you are saved by keeping the law), however they forget to realize that nobody was ever saved by keeping the law. It has always been our faith in Christ that has saved mankind. Pre-Calvary it was faith that He would come, and Post-Calvary it is faith that He has come, and the role of the 10 has always been the same throughout.

When has the violation, of any of these, ever been acceptable to God?

1st: You shall have no other gods before me. - So, prior to Sinai, it was ok to have other gods above God?

2nd: You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. - Prior to Sinai it was ok to make idols and worship them?

3rd: You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. - Prior to Sinai, it was acceptable to God for us to take His name in vain?

4th: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Prior to Sinai, was it ok to not keep the day Holy? Why start a commandment with REMEMBER, if God did not know that it was and would be forgotten?

5th: Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you. - Prior to Sinai, it was alright with God for you to dishonor your Father/Mother? (talk to Noah's sons about that one)

6th: You shall not murder. - Prior to Sinai, are you beginning to see my point?

7th: You shall not commit adultery. - Prior to Sinai, or after Calvary are any of these things ever acceptable in God's eyes?

8th: You shall not steal. - What is it, about any one of these, that speaks to an isolated period in time?

9th: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - What part of "I will write my law on your heart" is God going to leave out?

10th: You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.” - Why would God carve it all in stone if it wasn't to be as eternal as He is?
You either did not read the thread or you read without comprehension. Nothing beyond what I have already said need be said. I will however say again that the command to observe the Sabbath was given only to the Jews and was not given until Exodus 16:22-30. Those who are sabbatarians aren't going to listen to reason, but others might be interested in the facts.

Now, as I've already explained in that thread how the Ten Commandments relate to the human race in general, anyone who is interested can read it here...

The Mosaic Law; The Ten Commandments; The Sabbath
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2010, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,238,378 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
When was anyone (except Christ) ever declared righteous by observing the law? No one. So, then why was it ever given? Clearly it was never a list of what someone must do in order to be saved. So, then what was its purpose. Are we ever saved by our obedience? No. We are obedient because we are saved. Huge difference and one I don't think many Christians fully understand. Doesn't God ask for our obedience? Or, is He fine with disobedience? What relevance to the words obedience/disobedience have if there is no law? The 10 commandments never have and never will save us from anything. Their purpose has always been to show us what sin is, for sin is simply the transgression of these commandments.
Amen...all Ten of them.

God Bless you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2010, 08:43 AM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,465 posts, read 21,214,758 times
Reputation: 17686
The Mosaic law was done away with...Not the 10 commandments..Christ said "another commandment I give you"..that was the commandment of love...If you have love, you will not break the 10 commandments as they are all based on love..

Nothing complicated about that..
__________________
Moderator of:
Non Romantic Relationships
Parenting, and sub-forums
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2010, 09:08 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,819,724 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Sorry, but I must say that your assertions are off base. Not sure where to begin but I'll start with the notion of the 10 (as I will refer to the 10 commandments from now on) as only applying to the Jews. The first 4 deal with how we are to love God with all our heart and the last 6 are about how we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. You asserted that the 4th only dealt with the jews and was not applicable before their exodus from Egypt yet you also state that God did sanctify the 7th day during the week of creation. My question is at what point in time has the 7th day of the week ever ceased to be Holy? Go though the creation week and you will find that everything that came into existence then still exists today, i.e. light, water, plants, sun/moon, birds, and mankind. Why wouldn't the sabbath still exist? does God ask for our obedience today? If so, what are we to obey, if not a law?

I will say that the 10 were given to the Israelites but that doesn't mean they were only applicable to the Israelites. Who else was God going to give His law to? The Egyptians? The Canaanites? These people didn't believe in Him so no He was going to entrust them with it. The Israelites received GOD's law, because they were His people. His law has always been for His people. Did God have people back in the day who were not of the blood of Abraham but exhibited the faith of Abraham? Yes, and so those people were then considered His. Who are God's people today? According to the bible they are those that have the faith of Abraham not necessarily the blood of Abraham. They are those that believe in the truth of Christ. The Israelites believed in the truth of Christ(that he would come) as well.

Most of Protestant Christianity today seems to think that if you believe a Christian must keep the 10 then your are legalistic (implying that you believe you are saved by keeping the law), however they forget to realize that nobody was ever saved by keeping the law. It has always been our faith in Christ that has saved mankind. Pre-Calvary it was faith that He would come, and Post-Calvary it is faith that He has come, and the role of the 10 has always been the same throughout.

When has the violation, of any of these, ever been acceptable to God?

1st: You shall have no other gods before me. - So, prior to Sinai, it was ok to have other gods above God?

2nd: You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. - Prior to Sinai it was ok to make idols and worship them?

3rd: You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. - Prior to Sinai, it was acceptable to God for us to take His name in vain?

4th: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Prior to Sinai, was it ok to not keep the day Holy? Why start a commandment with REMEMBER, if God did not know that it was and would be forgotten?

5th: Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you. - Prior to Sinai, it was alright with God for you to dishonor your Father/Mother? (talk to Noah's sons about that one)

6th: You shall not murder. - Prior to Sinai, are you beginning to see my point?

7th: You shall not commit adultery. - Prior to Sinai, or after Calvary are any of these things ever acceptable in God's eyes?

8th: You shall not steal. - What is it, about any one of these, that speaks to an isolated period in time?

9th: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - What part of "I will write my law on your heart" is God going to leave out?

10th: You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.” - Why would God carve it all in stone if it wasn't to be as eternal as He is?
Romans 5:12-14 answers your question: Prior to Sinai........

Romans 5:12-14
"for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command,"

The purpose of Sinai.......

Romans 5:20
"The law was added so that the trespass might increase."

Romans 3:19
"that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2010, 10:28 PM
 
420 posts, read 1,094,583 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
The Mosaic law was done away with...Not the 10 commandments..Christ said "another commandment I give you"..that was the commandment of love...If you have love, you will not break the 10 commandments as they are all based on love..

Nothing complicated about that..
See Hebrews chapters 7 through 9 the 10 commandments were intended to make us "conscious of sin" we are not saved by keeping them. Jesus caught the rich young ruler with commandment 1. "You shall have no other gods before me." The rich man was not willing to give up his money to follow Jesus because money was more important to him. We establish the law by freely keeping it even though we are saved by grace through faith.

We are today to walk by faith in Jesus for salvation and redemption, for forgiveness of sin, for our holy character, and for all of our needs. However, to know the 10 commandments, and to teach our children the 10 commandments is a good thing. Moderator cut: personal

Last edited by Miss Blue; 04-18-2010 at 10:35 PM.. Reason: It is against the TOS to post your personal information or to advertise your videos or websites..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-19-2010, 08:37 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,258,992 times
Reputation: 1233
Miss Blue was on target. Neither she (if I may be so bold as to speak on her behalf) nor I believe keeping the 10 commandments saves anyone. Only grace by faith through Jesus saves. A non-believer can keep the 10 commandments, but that will not make them saved. However, if we are saved and we love God and we love Jesus and follow Him, how do we show this? As Jesus Himself said, John 14:15 (NIV) If you love me, you will obey what I command.

I am a Christian and I do not believe the 10 commandments were done away with. They were not. Jesus did not come to abolish the law, He came to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17 NIV). In fulfilling the law, Jesus gave us 2 commandments:

1) Love God with all your mind, body, spirit & strength
2) Love your neighbor as yourself.

All the law is bound up in these two commands to Christ's followers. (Matthew 22:36-40 NIV). Do you know why? Because if you follow these two laws of love, you will invariably fulfill the 10 commandments. This is why the 10 commandments were not done away with, they were put into a different perspective.

Also, yes, I still believe you need to teach what the 10 commandments are and what they teach us and tell us. It's simple right and wrong information. I beileve it is proper to teach our children to obey the 10 commandments. There does (or should) come a time, however, when they will be better able to understand and implement the 2 commands of Jesus. This shows growth in their journey and understanding of what God asks of us. It is moving from milk to meat, IMHO.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top