U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-21-2010, 03:06 PM
 
37,648 posts, read 25,337,503 times
Reputation: 5864

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I tend to disagree that Jesus had an advantage over other humans... he understood more clearly the ways of God as did David and Abraham before him... Both of whom received the counsel of the holy spirit.
I am under no delusion that we have the same capability that Jesus possessed from birth . . . so we can agree to disagree, kat. The Holy Spirit was simply not effectively available to any human consciousness prior to Jesus' rebirth as Spirit, IMO. The partial and sporadic inspirations were in no way comparable to what we have available since Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-21-2010, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,409,656 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am under no delusion that we have the same capability that Jesus possessed from birth . . . so we can agree to disagree, kat. The Holy Spirit was simply not effectively available to any human consciousness prior to Jesus' rebirth as Spirit, IMO. The partial and sporadic inspirations were in no way comparable to what we have available since Christ.
True... I agree with that, we all have the unique opportunity to live out our lives with the counsel of the HS, which is something they didn't seem to have in the OT...

Aren't amicable disagreements nice?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2010, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,389,238 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am under no delusion that we have the same capability that Jesus possessed from birth . . . so we can agree to disagree, kat. The Holy Spirit was simply not effectively available to any human consciousness prior to Jesus' rebirth as Spirit, IMO. The partial and sporadic inspirations were in no way comparable to what we have available since Christ.

I find this verse interesting. I don't know if this is quite what you are talking about.

Acts 17:26 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him (feel after him KJV)and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

This is the verse that comes before it:

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

(that really kills much of Calvinism, if you ask me.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2010, 03:52 PM
 
Location: California
1,191 posts, read 1,236,271 times
Reputation: 1742
Did the Jews believe their Messiah would be God himself? I know it is common for Christians to look at Old Testament/ Jewish Texts and read Jesus into those texts as Messiah. However, based on Jewish thought and Jewish tradition regarding their texts and their prophecies was the idea of the coming Messiah being God himself ever tossed around?

I think it is a fair question because, according to Christians, Jesus was supposed to be the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies. So that means his story (and his identity) begins in Jewish hands, so to speak. Did their texts foretell a "divine" Messiah? Or was he just supposed to be a very special, but still very human man?

Maybe one of the reasons Jews reject Christ is because their understanding of the Messiah does not line up with who Christians profess Christ to be. It's just a thought. Can anyone address this?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2010, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 1,083,967 times
Reputation: 168
Jesus came from the spirit world to Earth and took the form of man but he did not become a God but the son of the Father. You also lived as a spirit in that Kingdom, and took the form of man merely as a son/daugher of your Father. You are the same as Jesus, except as to spritual development, and you may become as greatly developed as Jesus.

Jesus was born as you were born but he was born free from sin and error. When he said "I am the Way , the Truth and the Life" it is through his teachings and example that men should be able to find God. He is not God and never claimed to be God. The trinity is a mistake of the writers of the bible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2010, 04:19 PM
 
37,648 posts, read 25,337,503 times
Reputation: 5864
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
True... I agree with that, we all have the unique opportunity to live out our lives with the counsel of the HS, which is something they didn't seem to have in the OT...

Aren't amicable disagreements nice?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2010, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,389,238 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliDude1 View Post
Did the Jews believe their Messiah would be God himself? I know it is common for Christians to look at Old Testament/ Jewish Texts and read Jesus into those texts as Messiah. However, based on Jewish thought and Jewish tradition regarding their texts and their prophecies was the idea of the coming Messiah being God himself ever tossed around?

I think it is a fair question because, according to Christians, Jesus was supposed to be the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies. So that means his story (and his identity) begins in Jewish hands, so to speak. Did their texts foretell a "divine" Messiah? Or was he just supposed to be a very special, but still very human man?

Maybe one of the reasons Jews reject Christ is because their understanding of the Messiah does not line up with who Christians profess Christ to be. It's just a thought. Can anyone address this?
Well, Micah 5:2 is an interesting verse.

But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times."


There are many others from the Old Testament that talk about a figure that would match Jesus (Yeshua). Not so much DIVINE, although much more than just human.

He took on FLESH to SHOW HIMSELF and to become the LAMB and HIGH PRIEST (whether He is fully divine is a tough one, as you can see with all the previous posts and the arguing going on for the last 2000 years)

Christ did say He came for the House of Israel, but their leaders kept leading them into the ditch through their teachings. They kept taking everything so literally, and brought in so much pagan thought, that they were blind.

Maybe like the Christians of today, who seem to think only a certain elect are saved, the Jews were expecting a salvation for the JEWS. Not somebody who was coming for the WHOLE WORLD.

God was using the Jews all throughout the Old Testament to show the nations how the CREATOR worked. To show the difference between Him and the gods of the nations around them. But they kept copying the pagan gods, misinterpreting what God was actually trying to accomplish. So, war, poverty and chaos ensued.

Israel took the advantages God kept giving them to treat others poorly, just like the Christians have done for the last 2000 years.

Both Christians and Jews have done the same thing. They were both supposed to show the nations around them LOVE and KINDNESS, but did neither, really. Christianity has made a mockery of Christ, in my opinion. I don't see a whole lotta LOVE, KINDNESS, or HUMILIY on either side over the last 4000 years.

It seems nobody really gets it (maybe a few here and there).

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2010, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,315 posts, read 14,198,382 times
Reputation: 10139
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
DRob - People who are married are "one flesh" but yet two different essences with one united purpose. The trinity seems to say that they are one in essence and in substance yet separate in their duties.

God being one with Jesus is that he is united in purpose with God but is of a different substance... The whole thing is confusing.
You said two different things here - see the underlined above.

The "Trinity" is God choosing to represent Himself in three persons - Himself (the Father), His Son, the Holy Spirit. Three separate beings - one purpose.

That's how I link it to marriage, which is two separate beings with one purpose.

This unity among the Father, Son, and Spirit actually extends to all who believe in His name - since we become one with the body of Jesus.

John 17:20-23 - 20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2010, 05:19 PM
 
3,585 posts, read 462,947 times
Reputation: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
You said two different things here - see the underlined above.

The "Trinity" is God choosing to represent Himself in three persons - Himself (the Father), His Son, the Holy Spirit. Three separate beings - one purpose.

[/color]
This is where it gets confusing ........ the traditional creedal "trinity" is not that God chooses to represent himself through Christ -- it is that God is actually eternally made up of 3 distinct persons that are God.

But we also have Jesus saying that God is his Father, and that he is the Son of God.

To me it seems that God raised up Jesus who is his Son ..... and that they have the same purpose because Jesus does His Fathers (Gods ) will...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-21-2010, 05:25 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,427,109 times
Reputation: 5148
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliDude1 View Post
Did the Jews believe their Messiah would be God himself? I know it is common for Christians to look at Old Testament/ Jewish Texts and read Jesus into those texts as Messiah. However, based on Jewish thought and Jewish tradition regarding their texts and their prophecies was the idea of the coming Messiah being God himself ever tossed around?

I think it is a fair question because, according to Christians, Jesus was supposed to be the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies. So that means his story (and his identity) begins in Jewish hands, so to speak. Did their texts foretell a "divine" Messiah? Or was he just supposed to be a very special, but still very human man?

Maybe one of the reasons Jews reject Christ is because their understanding of the Messiah does not line up with who Christians profess Christ to be. It's just a thought. Can anyone address this?
Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Jesus' utterance on the cross)

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalm 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Isaiah 53:3-6 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 BUT HE WAS WOUNDED FOR OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, HE WAS BRUISED FOR OUR INIQUITIES: THE CHASTISEMENT OF OUR PEACE WAS UPON HIM; AND WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED.

6 We are like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to HIS OWN WAY; and the LORD hath laid on him THE INIQUITY OF US ALL.

Being a Jew does not denote a race...rather...any man (Hebrew or otherwise) who adheres to Ju-da-ism, a religion/doctrine (founded by Solomon of the tribe of Judah) that rejects Jesus as the Messiah...shortened by the word JEW!

Quote:
1 King 10:14 Now the weight of GOLD that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents (666) of GOLD.

1 King 11:6 And Solomon did EVIL in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
If anyone refutes that these passages point to THE CHRIST JESUS...let him speak...otherwise let it stand and be at peace!

P.S. The prophets were not JEWS but Hebrews who were moved by the Holy Spirit of GOD...Peace!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top