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Old 04-19-2010, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,387,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign till (hou achris) He has put all enemies under His feet.
hou achris does not mean cessation or termination but is a point of reference.
(I PROMISE I am not trying to confuse you, sciotamicks. Sorry if this does not make sense)

I saw a similar explanation, to the one you gave, on Yahoo answers.

The person trying to explain said that hou achris meant basically that if you were a parent and said "You children behave until (hou achris) I get home" does not imply that they should misbehave once he has returned.

But that does not have anything to do with 1 Corinthians 15:25.

I (Christ) must reign until (hou achris) I put enemies under my feet, of course does not imply that the enemies then get up on top of his feet when he "gets home."

But if you said "the babysitter (Christ) will reign until (hou achris) the parent (God) gets home," what does that mean? (Am I making any sense) I mean we need to look at each sentence individually, right?

And why can't we just say God is reigning if Jesus is God. We can just say God is going to reign until the enemies get put under His feet.

Why all the confusion?

(I'm not trying to be a heretic here and I certainly do not want to be struck down by lightning. Just a LOT of questions on my mind)

Last edited by herefornow; 04-19-2010 at 10:24 PM..
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Old 04-19-2010, 09:52 PM
 
3,582 posts, read 459,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I just saw a similar explanation on Yahoo answers.

The person trying to explain said that hou achris meant basically that if you were a parent and said "You children behave until (hou achris) I get home" does not imply that they should misbehave once he has returned.

But that does not have anything to do with 1 Corinthians 15:25.

I (Christ) must reign until (hou achris) I put enemies under my feet, of course does not imply that the enemies then get up on top of his feet when he "gets home."

But if you said "the babysitter (Christ) will reign until (hou achris) the parent (God) gets home," what does that mean?

And why can't we just say God is reigning if Jesus is God. We can just say God is going to reign until the enemies get put under His feet.

Why all the confusion?

(I'm not trying to be a heretic here. Just a LOT of questions on my mind)
I know what you mean -- I am questioning things and trying to get answers ........


I think part of the problem can be having a doctrine first ........ calvinism/ preterism/ futurism/trinity and then interpreting the scriptures to reflect that doctrine. So many labels and doctrines based on different interpretations

I believe that what they said is what it means Christ reigns until all enemies are under his feet it seems to apply to an age for the purpose of accomplishing the subduing of the nations. Once Christ has all enemies under his feet (subject to him, obedient) , then Christ is subject to God and God is all in all.

To me it seems that with full preterism the end point is never reached only an end of physical Israel with the destruction at 70AD, whereas this seems to be saying the Christ does accomplish the subduing of the nations.

Look at Isaiah 45 It seems to say that as well as Israel the nations will be subdued ---- Israel will not be ashamed, the nations will be confounded and ashamed and then it goes on the say every knee will bow and confess.

This seems to tie in with --> God is the saviour of all, especially believers (not only believers)
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Old 04-19-2010, 09:53 PM
 
5,743 posts, read 4,594,578 times
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herefornow, I don't think I am wrong when I say that your questions are absolutely beautiful to Him.

sorry don't have much to add to the conversation right now, and I hate to go off topic, but I just had to say that.

Seeking Him and asking questions and struggling to get to truth is probably the most sincere form of worship there is.

peace,
sparrow
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Old 04-19-2010, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,387,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I know what you mean -- I am questioning things and trying to get answers ........


I think part of the problem can be having a doctrine first ........ calvinism/ preterism/ futurism/trinity and then interpreting the scriptures to reflect that doctrine. So many labels and doctrines based on different interpretations

I believe that what they said is what it means Christ reigns until all enemies are under his feet it seems to apply to an age for the purpose of accomplishing the subduing of the nations. Once Christ has all enemies under his feet (subject to him, obedient) , then Christ is subject to God and God is all in all.

To me it seems that with full preterism the end point is never reached only an end of physical Israel with the destruction at 70AD, whereas this seems to be saying the Christ does accomplish the subduing of the nations.

Look at Isaiah 45 It seems to say that as well as Israel the nations will be subdued ---- Israel will not be ashamed, the nations will be confounded and ashamed and then it goes on the say every knee will bow and confess.

This seems to tie in with --> God is the saviour of all, especially believers (not only believers)
There are a WHOLE lot of verses that just can't be tied together very well when you claim a denomination as the "be all, end all" of your studies.

It is very frustrating when you go out "on your own", though. It's kind of scary, actually. At least, at first.



Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
herefornow, I don't think I am wrong when I say that your questions are absolutely beautiful to Him.

sorry don't have much to add to the conversation right now, and I hate to go off topic, but I just had to say that.

Seeking Him and asking questions and struggling to get to truth is probably the most sincere form of worship there is.

peace,
sparrow
Thanks, sparrow. I was wondering where you were. I haven't seen you post much lately. I guess these boards can wear you down after a while.

(and I think I always go off topic somehow. Is it alright to do that on your own thread?)
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Old 04-19-2010, 10:19 PM
 
5,743 posts, read 4,594,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Thanks, sparrow. I was wondering where you were. I haven't seen you post much lately. I guess these boards can wear you down after a while.

(and I think I always go off topic somehow. Is it alright to do that on your own thread?)
lol... yeah, it's hard to keep on topic.

I've been in "ramble" mode for awhile. Now I'm in "lurk" mode.
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Old 04-19-2010, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,852 times
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Folks,

You are misunderstanding 1 Cor 15. Let's look at Eph 1:

Vs 20-23

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Christ is God.

Now let's look at this:

1 Cor 15:24,27 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.....For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

At the Parousia.

Death was defeated at the cross and ascension, and was made, or will be made "manifest" at the Parousia, exactly what Paul is addressing here. The Son . . . himself . . . subject, not as the creatures are, but as a Son is voluntarily subordinate to, although co-equal with the Father. In the intermediate, 1000 years, kingdom, the Son had/has been, in a manner, distinct from the Father. At the time Paul is addressing, His kingdom shall merge in the Father's, with whom He is one, the Lamb and God in the throne room, where the river flows and the tree of Life is; for the Father Himself wills "that all should honor the Son, as they honor the Father". God . . . all in all, as Christ is all in all.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

Zech 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,404,036 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I know what you mean -- I am questioning things and trying to get answers ........


I think part of the problem can be having a doctrine first ........ calvinism/ preterism/ futurism/trinity and then interpreting the scriptures to reflect that doctrine. So many labels and doctrines based on different interpretations

I believe that what they said is what it means Christ reigns until all enemies are under his feet it seems to apply to an age for the purpose of accomplishing the subduing of the nations. Once Christ has all enemies under his feet (subject to him, obedient) , then Christ is subject to God and God is all in all.

To me it seems that with full preterism the end point is never reached only an end of physical Israel with the destruction at 70AD, whereas this seems to be saying the Christ does accomplish the subduing of the nations.

Look at Isaiah 45 It seems to say that as well as Israel the nations will be subdued ---- Israel will not be ashamed, the nations will be confounded and ashamed and then it goes on the say every knee will bow and confess.

This seems to tie in with --> God is the saviour of all, especially believers (not only believers)
"All enemies" are the first century enemies... How can we claim Jesus is victorious if those "all enemies" are not yet trampled underfoot?

It seems to me that the opposition to God came from the temple by people who thought they knew what God wanted but were completely blind.

That opposition was crushed in 70AD when the sacrifices ceased in Jerusalem. The one sacrifice of Christ replaced the many sacrifices of animals.

IMO
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,852 times
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Kat, He didn't replace them, He fulfilled them.
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:29 PM
 
3,582 posts, read 459,739 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
There are a WHOLE lot of verses that just can't be tied together very well when you claim a denomination as the "be all, end all" of your studies.

It is very frustrating when you go out "on your own", though. It's kind of scary, actually. At least, at first.
Yes - I can relate totally to that -- specially when you are accused of falling for the great delusion and will burn in hell



Quote:
Thanks, sparrow. I was wondering where you were. I haven't seen you post much lately. I guess these boards can wear you down after a while.

(and I think I always go off topic somehow. Is it alright to do that on your own thread?)
Yes
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:38 PM
 
3,582 posts, read 459,739 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
"All enemies" are the first century enemies... How can we claim Jesus is victorious if those "all enemies" are not yet trampled underfoot?

It seems to me that the opposition to God came from the temple by people who thought they knew what God wanted but were completely blind.

That opposition was crushed in 70AD when the sacrifices ceased in Jerusalem. The one sacrifice of Christ replaced the many sacrifices of animals.

IMO
Kat .... There is also the deeds of the flesh which are at enmity to the spirit of God.

I would think that it was not just the physical Jews who are the enemies that need to be overcome -- it is all that is not of the spirit of God.
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