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Old 04-20-2010, 09:56 AM
 
Location: PA
45 posts, read 39,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Welcome to City-data!

I have a couple questions for you to ponder about this eternity thing:
1. If eternal life and judgment death (non-believers hell) use of eternal means without end yet has a beginning, why don't they have the same point of beginning? Eternal life can start when you accept Christ.. right? But does hell start the moment you reject him?

2. If a punishment is never ending can it rightly be punishment? Isn't punishment for correction? Can never ending punishment ever lead to correction?
Hi, and thanks for the welcome!

Well, I don't think in this context that eternity means without beginning, as I mentioned before. I think eternal life and eternal death are being referred to as after the Great White Judgment. Once you are judged, you either are in Heaven or Hell for eternity. Just my thoughts.

I don't think this punishment is for rehabilitation, which is for correction. It is your punishment that you brought on yourself for your belief/actions, etc. You've lost your chance for correction once the Judgment has occurred.
JMO.

I love this forum! Lots to think about!
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:57 AM
 
Location: PA
45 posts, read 39,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Hi bellamamma,

Welcome to city data
Thanks for the welcome! Looks like lots of great people here with lots of great information!
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,289,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellamamma View Post
You've lost your chance for correction once the Judgment has occurred.
JMO.
The Greek word used for “punishment”...kolasis.. in Matthew 25:46 is used elsewhere for actual punishment in the scriptures. It is also interesting to note that both the Lindell and Scott and BAGD (Greek Dictionaries/Lexicons) define the Greek for punishment as divine retribution and that this word was actually used in secular Greek as it is historically used in Matthew 25:46. Some scholars state that the word used for eternal does not mean eternal but some type of corrective, remedial or purgatorial punishment, which only God can give. I agree that God can only give the punishment, but to say it is not an eternal punishment must imply that the eternal life may not be so everlasting either. Another scholar states, “parallel clauses suggest an absolute contrast, not a limited one, so that eternal punishment and eternal life must be co-extensive of one another.” Age enduring is age enduring, just what it means, that it endures throughout the ages, and never ends.
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:47 AM
 
Location: PA
45 posts, read 39,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The Greek word used for “punishment”...kolasis.. in Matthew 25:46 is used elsewhere for actual punishment in the scriptures. It is also interesting to note that both the Lindell and Scott and BAGD (Greek Dictionaries/Lexicons) define the Greek for punishment as divine retribution and that this word was actually used in secular Greek as it is historically used in Matthew 25:46. Some scholars state that the word used for eternal does not mean eternal but some type of corrective, remedial or purgatorial punishment, which only God can give. I agree that God can only give the punishment, but to say it is not an eternal punishment must imply that the eternal life may not be so everlasting either. Another scholar states, “parallel clauses suggest an absolute contrast, not a limited one, so that eternal punishment and eternal life must be co-extensive of one another.” Age enduring is age enduring, just what it means, that it endures throughout the ages, and never ends.
Divine retribution...yes, God's punishment for our sins and not accepting Him as Lord and that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I agree some scholars probably DO say that it's not eternal. Everyone has their opinion and there's lots of scholars that say it IS eternal. There's so many interpretations, isn't there? *sigh* I agree that if one says there's no eternal punishment, then there's no eternal life either, however I don't agree with it, but it does make sense. I'm gonna keep reading and studying. Should take me the rest of my life....LOL!
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,709,256 times
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Quote:
Some scholars state that the word used for eternal does not mean eternal but some type of corrective, remedial or purgatorial punishment, which only God can give. I agree that God can only give the punishment, but to say it is not an eternal punishment must imply that the eternal life may not be so everlasting either.
you equalize "eternal" with "endless" which is imprecise, "eternal" is a philosophical term and also has a qualitative aspect, it is not so much about duration at all, eternity is often reffered to as timelessness, not endless time, there is no authorative, biblical definiton of eternity, therefore it is an ambigous term.

Quote:
Another scholar states, “parallel clauses suggest an absolute contrast, not a limited one, so that eternal punishment and eternal life must be co-extensive of one another.”
this is the most common argument that has been challenged over and over again:

Topic #1

Topic #2

Topic #3

also see here:

Aion, Aionios, Aionion, Eternal, Eternity and Forever. (http://www.studentoftheword.com/Forever.html - broken link)

The Faith of Jesus: Aionios — The Word to Unlock the Future

Quote:
The Greek word used for “punishment”...kolasis.. in Matthew 25:46 is used elsewhere for actual punishment in the scriptures. It is also interesting to note that both the Lindell and Scott and BAGD (Greek Dictionaries/Lexicons) define the Greek for punishment as divine retribution and that this word was actually used in secular Greek as it is historically used in Matthew 25:46.
As far as I know Plato and Aristotle defined it as remedial punishment, as opposed to timôria; it is argued that in Koine Greek (in which the NT was written) the aspect of corrective punishment in kolasis was lost, however in Koine Greek also aiônios was definetly used in a loose sense, e.g. enduring, for lifetime.

Last edited by svenM; 04-20-2010 at 12:36 PM..
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:35 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,439,975 times
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Quote:
Another scholar states, “parallel clauses suggest an absolute contrast, not a limited one, so that eternal punishment and eternal life must be co-extensive of one another.”
Eonian life is co-extensive with eonian chastening. Both the life and the chastening is pertaining to that specific eon.

Matthew 25:31-46 is not about eternal life or eternal damnation. It is not about faith in Christ. It is concerning nations who withheld a cup of water from one of Christ's brethren or gave a cup.
It does not make sense that God would give eternal life for a cup of water or give eternal damnation for not giving a cup of water. I mean, how wrong would that be?!
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:43 PM
 
Location: PA
45 posts, read 39,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Matthew 25:31-46 is not about eternal life or eternal damnation. It is not about faith in Christ. It is concerning nations who withheld a cup of water from one of Christ's brethren or gave a cup.
It does not make sense that God would give eternal life for a cup of water or give eternal damnation for not giving a cup of water. I mean, how wrong would that be?!
infinite time; duration without beginning or end.

eternal existence, esp. as contrasted with mortal life: the eternity of god.


Theology. the timeless state into which the soul passes at a person's death.


eternities, the truths or realities of life and thought that are regarded as timeless or eternal.

Matthew 25:31-46 cannot be taken literally as an actual cup of water or feeding the hungry or clothing the naked. It is saying that what you do unto others you are also doing unto the Lord. It's saying at the Second Coming of the Lord He will divide the nations on the right and the left, believers on the right, non-believers on the left and this is the judgment that will determine who has eternal life and who has eternal damnation.
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:00 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,439,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellamamma View Post
infinite time; duration without beginning or end.

eternal existence, esp. as contrasted with mortal life: the eternity of god.


Theology. the timeless state into which the soul passes at a person's death.


eternities, the truths or realities of life and thought that are regarded as timeless or eternal.

Matthew 25:31-46 cannot be taken literally as an actual cup of water or feeding the hungry or clothing the naked. It is saying that what you do unto others you are also doing unto the Lord. It's saying at the Second Coming of the Lord He will divide the nations on the right and the left, believers on the right, non-believers on the left and this is the judgment that will determine who has eternal life and who has eternal damnation.
In other words, you don't believe the Bible.
Matthew 25:31-46 says nothing about faith and or the lack thereof. It is all about how those nations treated Christ's brethren.

It is not about eternal life or eternal damnation. The Greek word used is AIONIOS/eonian and never means "eternal."

Besides, no one goes to hell eternity for not believing in Jesus. Why would that be? The only way a person can believe is if God gives them faith to believe. So it is all up to God if a person believes. So why would he throw you in hell for eternity for something beyond your control?
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:07 PM
 
Location: PA
45 posts, read 39,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
In other words, you don't believe the Bible.
Matthew 25:31-46 says nothing about faith and or the lack thereof. It is all about how those nations treated Christ's brethren.

It is not about eternal life or eternal damnation. The Greek word used is AIONIOS/eonian and never means "eternal."

Besides, no one goes to hell eternity for not believing in Jesus. Why would that be? The only way a person can believe is if God gives them faith to believe. So it is all up to God if a person believes. So why would he throw you in hell for eternity for something beyond your control?
I ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY believe the Bible and am ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY insulted that you would state otherwise. I don't care what Greek translation is. The Bible is in English, I speak English, I have the Holy Spirit to guide me in understanding what is being said by God in the Bible.

Why would you believe otherwise that someone does not go to Hell for eternity for not believing in God when it states that clearly IN THE BILBLE? In other words, do YOU not believe the Bible? It's a two-way street there, huh?

Not trying to be rude, JMO.
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:11 PM
 
Location: PA
45 posts, read 39,929 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by bellamamma View Post
I ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY believe the Bible and am ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY insulted that you would state otherwise. I don't care what Greek translation is. The Bible is in English, I speak English, I have the Holy Spirit to guide me in understanding what is being said by God in the Bible.

Why would you believe otherwise that someone does not go to Hell for eternity for not believing in God when it states that clearly IN THE BILBLE? In other words, do YOU not believe the Bible? It's a two-way street there, huh?

Not trying to be rude, JMO.
What I'm trying to say....I think I found a more positive way to say it.....is that just because one person doesn't agree with another, they can't say, or don't have the right to say, that the other doesn't believe the Bible, nor can it be said back. It's judgmental and only God is to judge. Everyone has their right to their opinion and what they believe. Does that make sense? Well, anyway, it does to me. I'm in the middle of some other things now, I'll BBL.
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