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Old 04-21-2010, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,295,475 times
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
the verse that states that Christ's reign seems to end (1Co. 15) has already been posted
The scripture says His reign will never end, and 1 Cor 15 says nothing of His REIGN ENDING. The "putting down of all rule, power, and authority" and "delivering up the Kingdom" in 1 Corinthians 15:24 is the same putting down of the usurping rulers of Israel, who were the bearers of the kingdom during their dispensation, in Matthew 21:43-45 - the same Kingdom of Matt 21:43 being ripped away from them to be delivered back under the rule of the Father and His Anointed.

All things were put under the feet of Jesus, except the Father, that God would be all in all (1 Cor 15:27-28; Eph 1:10,22-23; 4:8-10). They are one in the same, so the kingdom is placed under a unified triune God, as being one. Christ is all in all - Co 3:11 - The Lord Jesus, as the head of the Church and the high priest of all the Elect, Israel, is subject to the Father. This does not remove the Kingdom from Christ. It established it back unto God and his Chosen people instead of continuing in the hands of the usurping, apostate rulers of Israel who were attempting to steal it from Jesus by force (Matt 21:38-45; Matt 11:12; Luke 19:14). The Kingdom of God has no end, and is governed under the Messiah, the last Adam, forevermore (Isa 9:6-7; Luke 1:32-33; Dan 7:14,27; Rev 11:15, 5:10, 1:5-6).

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Germany
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True, there are a few statements that made their way into the copies of copies of copies of the gospel texts which place “Hell” on Jesus’ lips,


I challenge this, it is true that Jesus spoke about the valley of Hinnom (translated hell), but I do not believe He meant thereby what now is called hell

Matthew 5:22

However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Gehenna.

it is ridicilous to understand this as while the first insult makes one liable to the Sanhedrin, the later insult will cause neverending torment - this is the first occurence of "hell" in the entire bible and believers are adressed.

I believe with Gehenna, Jesus meant the threat of a shamefull death, and not the condemnation to a fiery netherworld
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:21 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,417,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post


Matthew 5:22

However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Gehenna.

it is ridicilous to understand this as while the first insult makes one liable to the Sanhedrin, the later insult will cause neverending torment - this is the first occurence of "hell" in the entire bible and believers are adressed.

I believe with Gehenna, Jesus meant the threat of a shamefull death, and not the condemnation to a fiery netherworld
Exactly. This is possibly the clearest example showing gehenna CANNOT mean a place of endless torment, otherwise the judgments rendered in Mat 5:22 are reduced to nonsense. One insult makes one liable to the council, while another insult will result in endless torment?! It is ridiculous to interpret gehenna in this fashion.
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,295,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post

I challenge this, it is true that Jesus spoke about the valley of Hinnom (translated hell), but I do not believe He meant thereby what now is called hell

Matthew 5:22

However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Gehenna.

it is ridicilous to understand this as while the first insult makes one liable to the Sanhedrin, the later insult will cause neverending torment - this is the first occurence of "hell" in the entire bible and believers are adressed.

I believe with Gehenna, Jesus meant the threat of a shamefull death, and not the condemnation to a fiery netherworld
It is crucial to note that the entire vision of the New Jerusalem and its Lake of Fire (as found in Revelation 20-22) is derived from the historic earthly Jerusalem and its Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna), the refuse heap just south of the city. Jerusalem's infamous rubbish heap was aflame day and night with the city's waste. It was also the historic site where children were sacrificed to the god Molech (2 Kings 16:3; 21:6; 23:10), and where masses of the dead were dumped after battles with the Assyrians under King Hezekiah (Is 30:31-33; 37:36) and with the Romans at AD 70 (Josephus; War of the Jews 6, 8, 5; 5, 12, 7). Contrary to what many have supposed, the "lake of fire" (Valley of Hinnom) as used in Revelation is not a place of the annihilation of created beings. Rather, in John's usage, it is the state of covenantal death, separation and condemnation before God. That is, to be "in Christ" and "in the New Covenant" is to be "in the New Jerusalem" (Heb 12:18,22-24; Gal 4:24-26); to be "outside of Christ" and "outside of the covenant" is to be "judged" and under condemnation of the covenantal order/New Heavens and Earth (John 3:18-21)--even under the same condemnation of satan and his angels. The following passages are strikingly parallel and speak of the same spiritual reality:

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:18-21)

--COMPARE TO--

"if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire...the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars have their part in the lake which burns with fire... the [New Jerusalem] has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and the Lamb is the light of it. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it...and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life...Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Rev 20:15; 21:8; 21:23-24,27; 22:14-15)

The comparison of these passages shows that John 3:18-21 is the same reality depicted in the final passages of the Book of Revelation concerning New Jerusalem and the lake-of-fire judgment. Just as the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was the burning refuse heap outside the earthly city of Jerusalem, so here the "lake of fire" is the refuse heap of those outside of the Heavenly City. To "come to the light,"as John writes, is to come to Christ, to come into New Jerusalem. In contrast, to love darkness, to do evil and hate the light, is to remain outside of Christ and the covenant and be under a state of judgment/condemnation.

While on earth, men may come out of darkness and into the Light via translation into the Kingdom (Col 1:12-14/Acts 26:17-18) - but there is no middle ground before God (see: John 3:18-20, 12:46; Luke 1:78-79; John 1:5; Acts 26:18; Col 1:13; Eph 5:8; 1 Pet 2:9; 1 Jn 2:9-11). The blessedness of those who come out of judgment and darkness and into the light of Christ and New Jerusalem, of course, is accomplished through the conversion into the covenant with God, and pertains only to those who are being sanctified by faith in Christ (Acts 26:18) by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:9-11).

The New Testament presentation of "hell" derives from NT passages with the phrase "gehenna of fire," or "lake of fire."

For example:

Matthew 10:28 Be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul; but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna [hell]. (Young's Literal Translation)

Luke 12:5 Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna [hell] (Young's Literal Translation)

Mark 9:43-48 If thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, the fire unquenchable [hell]--where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, the fire unquenchable [hell]--where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire [hell]--where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. (Young's Liiteral Translation)

Revelation 20:12,15 I saw the dead, great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds...And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


In Mt 10:28 and Luke 12:5, we see that none were to fear mere physical death, such as martyrdom or the Roman slaughter of AD 70 that was coming, which they all knew from Christ's very own words; rather they were to fear what God could do to them after physical death, in the gehenna of the afterlife: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna]." We see God afflicts the departed soul with gehenna--something no mere mortal could do by killing the body alone. The Jews and Romans could kill only the body, but Jesus was telling men to fear a post-mortem punishment that was worse than the killing of the physical body.

Such warning of hell is seen in other NT verses. In Mk 9:42, the fate of being killed is said to be better than the fate awaiting false teachers. A fate worse than being merely physically killed can only speak of a worse punishment post-mortem. And in Mark 9:43-48, cited above, the sinner is told to fear being cast into gehenna the unquenchable fire, where their "worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" (emphasis is on the ongoing nature of their punishment).

In Luke 16:22-28, we see the Old Testament Hadean scenario as it was known in the time of Jesus...i.e., a post-mortem probationary/purgatorial state wherein some wicked ones were experiencing suffering, as in the rich man. Christ's description fully matches Josephus' discourse on Hades: wherein the Lake of Fire destiny of the wicked is claimed to be even worse than that experienced in Hades.

In Matt 25:41, the wicked are sent into "the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." The phrase "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and angels" cannot mean the rubbish heap of south Jerusalem, but must speak of a punishment of the non-corporeal realm (for evil angels cannot have been dumped into the Valley of Hinnom by the Romans at AD 70, or by anyone for that matter in the "material world.") The everlasting fire prepared for the fallen angels and the devil (Matt 25:41) was likewise the destination for wicked men (Mt 25:41), and a destination for the nature and essence of a "spiritual" realm. In 2 Peter 2:4,9, we too get a glimpse of the punishment of the wicked angels.

Again, punishment of angels cannot speak of the slaughter and disposal of people in the refuse heap of South Jerusalem at AD 70, or any other time in the history of Jerusalem, rather, it speaks of punishments in the non-corporeal realm. Importantly, the fate of the wicked angels is also the fate of wicked men (Matt 25:41), and Jude 1:22-23 instructs that preaching the gospel to men for salvation equates to saving them from "fire."

Finally, in Rev 11:18 and Rev 20:15-18, the judgment of dead ones is mentioned, which unquestionably speaks of post mortem judgment. This judgment of the dead is actually detailed in Rev 20:15-18, where the dead are thrown into the lake of fire (i.e, post-mortem people are thrown into the gehenna of fire). This cannot be the rubbish heap of south Jerusalem with the Romans, but rather is the traditional hell designated for the wicked in the afterlife, where Satan, his angels go to as well. Since the passage speaks of dead individuals sent to the gehenna of fire, it cannot be threatening physical death by the Romans at AD 70 in the Valley of Hinnom. These dead people are already removed from the land of the living on earth. Hell is real. It is typologically pictured as this refuse heap Gehenna, and typology, is what GOD teaches.
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Old 04-21-2010, 02:26 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,724,090 times
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Rev 20:15; 21:8; 21:23-24,27; 22:14-15)
So, all dogs go to hell? That would be so sad.
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Old 04-21-2010, 02:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
So, all dogs go to hell? That would be so sad.
Everthing that is covered by agape love will remain under cover of that love . . . IF WE are.
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Old 04-21-2010, 02:36 PM
 
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Prov 10:12 Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs

That is a powerful statement if you realize all the ramifications of it.
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Old 04-21-2010, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Prov 10:12 Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs

That is a powerful statement if you realize all the ramifications of it.
Love covers a MULTITUDE of sins. I Peter 4:8

I told that verse to my husband and he said, "does it say that in the Bible"?

We don't get these kinds of messages a lot from our authority figures when we are younger.

The more you look at the messages of forgiveness and hope all throughout the Bible (even the Old Testament, ) the harder it is to see God setting people on fire for billions of years.
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Old 04-21-2010, 03:39 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,424,181 times
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Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Love covers a MULTITUDE of sins. I Peter 4:8

I told that verse to my husband and he said, "does it say that in the Bible"?

We don't get these kinds of messages a lot from our authority figures when we are younger.

The more you look at the messages of forgiveness and hope all throughout the Bible (even the Old Testament, ) the harder it is to see God setting people on fire for billions of years.
He doesn't!
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Old 04-21-2010, 03:39 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,460,663 times
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The scripture says His reign will never end, and 1 Cor 15 says nothing of His REIGN ENDING. The "putting down of all rule, power, and authority" and "delivering up the Kingdom" in 1 Corinthians 15:24 is the same putting down of the usurping rulers of Israel, who were the bearers of the kingdom during their dispensation, in Matthew 21:43-45 - the same Kingdom of Matt 21:43 being ripped away from them to be delivered back under the rule of the Father and His Anointed.
Any reigning going on in God's universe shows there is insubbordination. If Christ reigns eternally then there is eternal insubbordination.
Since all sovereignty, authority and power are going to be done away and Christ will quit reigning (1 Corinthians 15:24,25), this proves all insobbordination will be done away. Christ will rule so perfectly that He will rule out all rule.

Quote:
All things were put under the feet of Jesus, except the Father, that God would be all in all (1 Cor 15:27-28; Eph 1:10,22-23; 4:8-10). They are one in the same, so the kingdom is placed under a unified triune God, as being one.
The Bible does not say the kingdom is placed under a unified triune God as being one. The fact that you have to invent phrases not found in the Scriptures shows your theology cannot back up what you say.
Christ doesn't hand the kingdom over to Himself but over to God. He quits reigning and then death is abolished and then God is All in all, not Christ.

Quote:
Christ is all in all - Co 3:11 - The Lord Jesus, as the head of the Church and the high priest of all the Elect, Israel, is subject to the Father. This does not remove the Kingdom from Christ. It established it back unto God and his Chosen people instead of continuing in the hands of the usurping, apostate rulers of Israel who were attempting to steal it from Jesus by force (Matt 21:38-45; Matt 11:12; Luke 19:14). The Kingdom of God has no end, and is governed under the Messiah, the last Adam, forevermore (Isa 9:6-7; Luke 1:32-33; Dan 7:14,27; Rev 11:15, 5:10, 1:5-6).
Colossians 3:11 has Christ being all in all the believers:
Col 3:11 "wherein there is no Greek and Jew, Circumcision and Uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, freeman, but all and in all is Christ."
We have the spirit of Christ in us and the spirit of God. In the future it will be God who will be All in all.

Quote:
Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 2:2 that their hearts may be consoled, being united in love, and to all the riches of the assurance of understanding, unto a realization of the secret of the God and Father of Christ, (Concordant Literal).
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