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Old 04-19-2010, 10:20 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Yes, concerning Ephesians 2:8, Augustine continues:

"This he very expressly teaches us when he says, “For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.” Ephesians 2:8 They might possibly say, “We received grace because we believed;” as if they would attribute the faith to themselves, and the grace to God. Therefore, the apostle having said, “You are saved through faith,” added, And that not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God."
you believe because of Grace...
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Old 04-19-2010, 10:21 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by DNick View Post
I have a question. How do you choose what Early Church Father you read, and which ones you don't? And the ones you do read, if they write something you don't agree with, do you just ignore it?
If it does not line up with scripture...then it is wrong...
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Old 04-19-2010, 03:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
If it does not line up with scripture...then it is wrong...
Your interpretation of scripture, or the person taught by the Apostles? Which one most likely has the best interpretation?
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I am a Calvinist...Calvinism connects to Augustinianism...it is also similar to Luther...and many others...
Well, I believe this document by Augustine is definately Truth. I know there are others that embrace it also that are not universalists. But I think that to embrace that document and to say that your not a universalist seems a bit contrary. In fact, I'm not sure people would consider Augustine of Hippo a universalist but I don't see how he couldn't be based on his analysis of God's Word.
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
you believe because of Grace...
Absolutely! God is not a respector of persons. But even my BELIEF is a gift of God. I don't own the Faith I have. It was a gift also. So what of the person that has not got Faith? - Obviously, it can only mean that God has not yet provided it - for where else could it be come from - we can't earn it and His Word says that He is no respector of persons.
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Old 04-24-2010, 05:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Absolutely! God is not a respector of persons. But even my BELIEF is a gift of God. I don't own the Faith I have. It was a gift also. So what of the person that has not got Faith? - Obviously, it can only mean that God has not yet provided it - for where else could it be come from - we can't earn it and His Word says that He is no respector of persons.
The 'no respector of persons' part does not imply all will be saved, but that it does not matter how rich or poor you are or how good or bad you are or any other title or label that man can make up, but that it is all of God's choosing whether you believe or you do not believe, whether you are called or passed over...That is why there are words such as Chosen and Elected in the Bible and all of it was already planned out that is why there are words in the Bible like predestinated, preordained...i have met so many that think that they did the choosing and that they did the saving and their behavior is such that they think that they can earn their place among the saints of God and it is foolishness...it is such low level thinking...Faith and Repentance are given by God, it is not from within ourselves that way no one can boast of his accomplishments and god chooses who He wishes to bestow those gifts on...'He chose us, we did not choose Him' nor are we able to choose Him in our natural state because we are God haters and slaves of sin and want nothing to do with righteousness, our spirits are dead...So, how do you think we are able to 'see the light' as they say?...it is because God regenerates our spirit and enlivens it by his Holy Spirit so that we believe the Gospel and that is the gift of Faith and it is a Gift that God gives to whomever He chosses...even in the OT God chose one people out of all the people on the earth to reveal himself to and His chosen people were through Abraham...Do you think God has changed His way of doing things?...if so, that would negate that passage that says that God is the same yesterday and tomorrow, he changes not...
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The 'no respector of persons' part does not imply all will be saved, but that it does not matter how rich or poor you are or how good or bad you are or any other title or label that man can make up, but that it is all of God's choosing whether you believe or you do not believe, whether you are called or passed over...That is why there are words such as Chosen and Elected in the Bible and all of it was already planned out that is why there are words in the Bible like predestinated, preordained...i have met so many that think that they did the choosing and that they did the saving and their behavior is such that they think that they can earn their place among the saints of God and it is foolishness...it is such low level thinking...Faith and Repentance are given by God, it is not from within ourselves that way no one can boast of his accomplishments and god chooses who He wishes to bestow those gifts on...'He chose us, we did not choose Him' nor are we able to choose Him in our natural state because we are God haters and slaves of sin and want nothing to do with righteousness, our spirits are dead...So, how do you think we are able to 'see the light' as they say?...it is because God regenerates our spirit and enlivens it by his Holy Spirit so that we believe the Gospel and that is the gift of Faith and it is a Gift that God gives to whomever He chosses...even in the OT God chose one people out of all the people on the earth to reveal himself to and His chosen people were through Abraham...Do you think God has changed His way of doing things?...if so, that would negate that passage that says that God is the same yesterday and tomorrow, he changes not...
God's people were the Israelites and yet He chose the Levites as a chosen people to be priests over the Israelites. Under the new covenant, God has a CHOSEN also to be the priests as well for the New Temple that is being built. By there being a chosen in no way excluded the rest from God's Salvation just as it didn't exclude the rest of the Tribes of Israel from being His people when He chose the Levites.

There is a lot that I agree with in your reply Richard. I too believe that God is the same yesterday and tomorrow and changes not. I to believe that we are by our own nature - God haters and slaves of sin.

God will ERADICATE sin. There will be NONE. Sin will be annhilated. At some point in our future sin will not exist ANYWHERE.
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Old 04-25-2010, 06:45 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
God's people were the Israelites and yet He chose the Levites as a chosen people to be priests over the Israelites. Under the new covenant, God has a CHOSEN also to be the priests as well for the New Temple that is being built. By there being a chosen in no way excluded the rest from God's Salvation just as it didn't exclude the rest of the Tribes of Israel from being His people when He chose the Levites.

There is a lot that I agree with in your reply Richard. I too believe that God is the same yesterday and tomorrow and changes not. I to believe that we are by our own nature - God haters and slaves of sin.

God will ERADICATE sin. There will be NONE. Sin will be annhilated. At some point in our future sin will not exist ANYWHERE.
Deu 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

2Ch 6:6 But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel.

Isa 43:20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, [and] rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
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Old 04-25-2010, 07:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Deu 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

2Ch 6:6 But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel.

Isa 43:20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, [and] rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Deu 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
Deu 18:2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
Deu 18:3 And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw.
Deu 18:4 The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.
Deu 18:5 For the LORD thy God hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons for ever.
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Old 04-27-2010, 03:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Hi DNick, that is a great question. I believe it is all about discernment. I believe the Holy Spirit provides that discernment. There will be those that claim to have the Spirit say to embrace this while someone else will claim to have it and say to embrace something contrary. It doesn't mean that one of them isn't right. Those that have the Spirit will understand as the Spirit gives them discernment.
I agree with you trettep, but it is still almost impossible to determine who is the church father that was correct in their interpretation. On this forum, both ETers and URers claim the Holy Spirit, but URers claim that the writings of Origen are the most accurate in capturing the original message set by the early Church leaders while ETers push for Augustine and Jerome. In fact the foundation of both theologies seem to stem from the perspectives of these guys. Who is right? Judging from this forum, it's almost impossible to say that the Holy Spirit is leading anyone here because no one is coming to the same conclusion. What is the criteria set to properly discern who is right?
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