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Old 04-20-2010, 11:40 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Hi InsaneInDaMembrane,

Not only that, but you may find its fulfillment in Acts.

Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
As Christ said in John, who's father was really Abraham?
So there you have it I guess. It was a FOREGONE conclusion the prophecies were already fulfilled (the Jews had returned from Babylon and surrounding nations as predicted [allegedly]) so there was NO need to keep speaking about a future regathering supposedly in 1948 forward.
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Old 04-20-2010, 01:50 PM
 
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Default The Lords doing !

This ceasing of national Covenant Israel because of Her unbelief, was of the Lords doing Matt 21:42

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

It is marvellous in our eyes..Its the greek word :

thaumastos:


wonderful, marvellous

worthy of pious admiration, admirable, excellent

passing human comprehension

causing amazement joined with terror

marvellous

extraordinary, striking, surprising

It was a mystery unfolding, a plan being manifested..

Now rom 11:15

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Lets not kid ourselves, National Israel has been casted away, that is rejected, but for a noble eternal purpose.

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world[to God], what shall the receiving of them[ the elect remnant foreknown] be, but life from the dead?

Paul here would have Loved to see some of His kinsmen according to the flesh converted to Christ from their unbelief as He was, and so seeing , because most of them were dead in sin and blind, it would be as life from the dead.

Those in the Nation of Israel who were yet sons of God by election, the remnant of the election of grace, would be made alive from the dead..lk 15:24

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

So rom 11 15 as some erroneous teach, is not speaking about a future restoration of national covenant Israel, thats gone, but Paul was speaking about seeing some of his brethren according to the flesh, being grafted back into the olive tree..as he was..
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
Many have been deceived to think that Gods Israel, to whom all the promises were made, is a particular race of people, but its not, Gods Israel to whom pertains the promises is ethnically diversified, comprised of men and women of all nationalites, its not a people of race, but of grace..

Jesus has given many indications that Israel according to the flesh was not the chosen People of God..and that their nation would be cut off even from its earthly privileges of once being in a National Covenant relationship with God..

Matt 21:

42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The Kingdom of God shall be Taken from you..and that once and for all..

All the earthly Glory Israel once had as being a People of God, a represenation of the Kingdom of God on earth, well that has been taken away from them by God..

Jesus was announcing her end and at the same time annoucing Gods New representative Nation, though really not new, but now being more manifested.. This Covenant people will be highlighted with both jew and gentiles for here on out, the Israel of God. This People [The Israel of God] did exist in the OT but was mostly jewish people who existed in national israel, but now would be the time for the gathering in of the gentiles who were of the Israel of God..

Look at the context of Matt 21 and it gives us clear evidence of the end of national Israel :

33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

45And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
To the contrary. That is replacement theology and is a heresy. The church is NOT spiritual Israel. Israel has only been temporarily set aside until the church is raptured and then God will turn His attention back to Israel.

Israel and the church are two different peoples and God has separate programs for each.

God made certain promises to Abraham and his descendents. There are 4 unconditional covenants to Israel. 1) The Abrahamic Covenant 2) The Palestinian Covenant 3) The Davidic Covenant 4) The New Covenant to Israel. These covenants were made by God to Israel and they will be fulfilled at the Second Advent of Christ. They are eternal promises made by God to Israel and God's character is on the line. He must and will keep them. Israel has an eternal future. Zech. chapter 14.

These two links deal with the unconditional covenants to Israel...

Bible Food for Hungry Christians


DOCTRINE OF THE DAVIDIC COVENANT


To understand the significance of modern day Israel, refer to this link.

Important: The Significance of Modern Day Israel Back in the Land


This link deals with Replacement theology...

O, Jerusalem! | thebereancall.org
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:44 PM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,026,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
So there you have it I guess. It was a FOREGONE conclusion the prophecies were already fulfilled (the Jews had returned from Babylon and surrounding nations as predicted [allegedly]) so there was NO need to keep speaking about a future regathering supposedly in 1948 forward.

Hi InsaneInDaMembrane,

Here is another oft misapplied chapter in Ezekiel. It must apply to the return from the Babylonian exile not the future.

Ezekiel 36
1 “And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, ‘O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD! 2 Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because the enemy has said of you, ‘Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession,’”’ 3 therefore prophesy, and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because they made you desolate and swallowed you up on every side, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you are taken up by the lips of talkers and slandered by the people”— 4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around— 5 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with wholehearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country.”’

Take careful note of Edom.

Obadiah 1


“ Even destroy the wise men from Edom,
And understanding from the mountains of Esau?
9 Then your mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed,
To the end that everyone from the mountains of Esau
May be cut off by slaughter.
10 “ For violence against your brother Jacob,
Shame shall cover you,
And you shall be cut off forever.



So we know Edom was to be judged in the context of the regathering of Israel and we also know at some point it would be final according to Obadiah.

Can Ezekiel 36 occur in the future?

Malachi 1
2 “ I have loved you,” says the LORD.

“ Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Wasnot Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the LORD.

“ Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”
4 Even though Edom has said,

“ We have been impoverished,
But we will return and build the desolate places,”

Thus says the LORD of hosts:


“ They may build, but I will throw down;
They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness,
And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.
5 Your eyes shall see,
And you shall say,

‘ The LORD is magnified beyond the border of Israel.’



Edom was judged and is now lost in the book of the post restoration prophet Malachi . How can it be reborn?
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:53 PM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,026,257 times
Reputation: 6377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. That is replacement theology and is a heresy. The church is NOT spiritual Israel. Israel has only been temporarily set aside until the church is raptured and then God will turn His attention back to Israel.

Israel and the church are two different peoples and God has separate programs for each.

God made certain promises to Abraham and his descendents. There are 4 unconditional covenants to Israel. 1) The Abrahamic Covenant 2) The Palestinian Covenant 3) The Davidic Covenant 4) The New Covenant to Israel. These covenants were made by God to Israel and they will be fulfilled at the Second Advent of Christ. They are eternal promises made by God to Israel and God's character is on the line. He must and will keep them. Israel has an eternal future. Zech. chapter 14.

These two links deal with the unconditional covenants to Israel...

Bible Food for Hungry Christians


DOCTRINE OF THE DAVIDIC COVENANT


To understand the significance of modern day Israel, refer to this link.

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/900961-important-significance-modern-day-israel-back.html


This link deals with Replacement theology...

O, Jerusalem! | thebereancall.org

Hi Mike555,

Jer 31:35-37 - Passage*Lookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com

Strange things do happen. See if you can put it together.

Mathew 24:29 - Passage*Lookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com
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Old 04-20-2010, 04:46 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,710,060 times
Reputation: 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Hi InsaneInDaMembrane,

Here is another oft misapplied chapter in Ezekiel. It must apply to the return from the Babylonian exile not the future.

Ezekiel 36
1 “And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, ‘O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD! 2 Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because the enemy has said of you, ‘Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession,’”’ 3 therefore prophesy, and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because they made you desolate and swallowed you up on every side, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you are taken up by the lips of talkers and slandered by the people”— 4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around— 5 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with wholehearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country.”’

Take careful note of Edom.

Obadiah 1


“ Even destroy the wise men from Edom,
And understanding from the mountains of Esau?
9 Then your mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed,
To the end that everyone from the mountains of Esau
May be cut off by slaughter.
10 “ For violence against your brother Jacob,
Shame shall cover you,
And you shall be cut off forever.



So we know Edom was to be judged in the context of the regathering of Israel and we also know at some point it would be final according to Obadiah.

Can Ezekiel 36 occur in the future?

Malachi 1
2 “ I have loved you,” says the LORD.

“ Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Wasnot Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the LORD.

“ Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”
4 Even though Edom has said,

“ We have been impoverished,
But we will return and build the desolate places,”

Thus says the LORD of hosts:


“ They may build, but I will throw down;
They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness,
And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.
5 Your eyes shall see,
And you shall say,

‘ The LORD is magnified beyond the border of Israel.’



Edom was judged and is now lost in the book of the post restoration prophet Malachi . How can it be reborn?
Oh, I am indeed of the opinion those "prophecies" were for a time long past. To say otherwise is wishful thinking and to do some serious injustice with the biblical passages. Futurists need these passages to fit into today's world.
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Old 04-20-2010, 07:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Jeremiah 31:35-37 is a promise from God that Israel will exist forever and that the Jews will always be a separate people. Matthew 24:29 in no way annuls God's eternal promises to Israel.


Jeremiah 31 Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible Scroll down to the bottom.

Jeremiah 31:36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." Read the commentary.

Jeremiah 31:37 This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the LORD. Read the commentary.

The point of the passage is that since God has promised that the fixed order of the sun for light by day, and the moon and the stars for light by night will never cease, neither then will His promise that the Jews and Israel will exist forever as a separate people ever be broken.


Matthew 24 Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible

Matthew 24:31 just two verses after verse 29 states quite plainly that the angels will gather together His elect from all over the world. This is a reference to the fact that at the Lord's return, He will regather all the Jews to the land (Israel). This is also covered in the commentary above.

Luke 13:34-35 ''O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! 35) Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!''

As a result of the judgments of the still future tribulation, the Jews will realize that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they rejected.


Ezekiel 21:25-27 'And you, O slain, wicked one, the prince of Israel, whose day has come, in the time of the punishment of the end.' 26) thus says the Lord God, 'Remove the turban, and take off the crown; This will be no more the same, Exalt that which is low, and abase that which is high. 27) 'A ruin, a ruin, a ruin, I shall make it. This also will be no more, until He comes whose right it is; and I shall give it to Him.'

God has promised that David will have a son who will sit on the throne forever. That is a reference to Jesus Christ who has not at any time as of yet sat on the throne of David. But He will when He returns at His Second Advent. And it is at that time when Israel will be fully restored.

Luke 1:32 'He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33) and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end.''

As recorded in Acts 1:6 the disciples had asked Jesus ''Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?'' In response, the Lord told them ''It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.' In so saying this, the Lord indicated that the kingdom would be restored at some point in the future.

As recorded in Luke 21:24 'and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations (this happened in A.D. 70); and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Israel will be fully restored at the Second Advent of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.

Zechariah 14:2 'For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished, and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3) Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4) And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in tis middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.'

At the end of the Trubulation, The Lord returns and fights for Israel and defeats her enemies, and at that time, Israel will be restored in full to the land.

Here is Jerusalem in the future after her restoration...

Isaiah 65:17 ''For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things shall not be remembered or come to mind. 18) But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing, And her people for gladness.


Here is a link which contains these passages and more information.

Bible study:* Jerusalem


And I refer readers back to post #43 for the information provided there.

Israel will exist forever in accordance with the unconditional promises that God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
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Old 04-20-2010, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Mike,

Abraham was not a Jew, and the blessings he was given were for "all nations", not just the Jews, which the writers of the New Testament confirmed. The church is Israel, physically and spritually, as it always was supposed to be. Physical, that it is here on earth, spiritual, as their reign is in Heaven.
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Mike,

Abraham was not a Jew, and the blessings he was given were for "all nations", not just the Jews, which the writers of the New Testament confirmed. The church is Israel, physically and spritually, as it always was supposed to be. Physical, that it is here on earth, spiritual, as their reign is in Heaven.
I'm not taking into account the southern Kingdom of Judah and therefore the name 'Jew'. Racially Abraham is a Jew. He is the father of the Jewish race. Or for those who simply must, a Hebrew. Racially they are all one people. Israel and the southern Kingdom of Judah. The same racial people who divided politically into the Northern and Southern kingdoms.

The church is not spiritual Israel. I have provided more than sufficient information on the subject in my two prior posts.

There are Gentiles.

There are Jews.

There is church.

During the church-age there is neither Jew nor Gentile but only church (Gal 3:28). A new creation (2 Cor 5:17). What that means is that during the church-age, whenever a person, whether he is Jew or Gentile, believes in Christ for salvation he becomes a part of the body of Christ. A born again Jew during the church-age belongs to the body of Christ--the Church.

However, Israel will always be Israel. This is referring back to the age of Israel. A different dispensation. The promises that God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob apply to Jews born during the age of Israel and to Jews that will be born during the Tribulation which is still future and is actually the last seven years remaining to the age of Israel. But only to believing Jews. It is not enough to be simply a physical Jew. Believing Jew's during the age of Israel which includes the yet future Tribulation will, when Christ returns, be the beneficiaries of the unconditional covenants that God made with Abraham. During the church-age any physical Jew belongs to the Church--the body of Christ.

Israel is Israel ( Age of Israel) and church is church (Dispensation of the Church-the body of Christ- the future bride of Christ.)

1 (http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:4EXqj9D_93cJ:www.charisseminary.org/DOCTRINE_OF_THE_FORTY_THINGS_13_Created_a_New_Spir itual_Species.doc+church+is+a+spiritual+race&cd=6& hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us - broken link) <----This link will help explain things.

Readers may refer back to posts #43 and 47.

Last edited by Mike555; 04-20-2010 at 09:44 PM..
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Mike,

Eph 2:12-14 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The scripture speaks otherwise.

Jew/Gentile = Israel
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