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Old 04-20-2010, 10:31 PM
 
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Lets compare eph 2:11-22 with rom 11:

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Now the olive tree in rom 11 17 is covenant Israel [ not national Isreal] and its branches, the ones not being broken off because of unbelief, are jewish people of the nation of israel, then when the gentiles are taken from their wild olive tree [ rom 11 17] and are grafted in with that Israel [ covenant Israel], then they become part of covenant Israel too..eph 2:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Note, the saints, which would be those branches not broken off of covenant Israel, those broken off were not saints..

The True olive tree is covenant Israel of which the grafted in gentiles become part of.

For the gentiles [ the elect ones] are no longer strangers to covenant israels promises eph 2:12, 19 but are now recognized heirs of the same promises that covenant israel is heir to, with those branches that were not broke off by Gods Judgment for unbelief..

BTW those natural branches that were broken off were not part of Gods Israel of promise from Gods perspective, they were not His foreknown people see [ rom 11:2],

for they had been cut off from the Israel of promise, so we have pauls classic rom 9:6 " that they are not Israel which are of Israel "..

You see, some in covenant Israel had no root see [ matt 13: 20-21 and Jn 15: 1-7] and were not chosen in christ [ Israel] the True seed israel..

These jews were cut off from the olive tree [ covenant israel ] made spiritually blind [ see Jn 9 :39] and the chosen gentiles have been made to see [ jn 9:39] and grafted into covenant Israel, the Olive tree, so now are of covenant israel along with the natural Jews who were not cut off.. For christ is the True house of Israel heb 3:

6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Holding fast with confidence is not a condition of being of christ house, but a manifestation or effect of being of His House..
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Mike,

Eph 2:12-14 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The scripture speaks otherwise.


Jew/Gentile = Israel
No. During the church-age, Jew and Gentile are Church. That does not mean that the church is spiritual Israel. I went into some detail about that in my last post. #49.
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. During the church-age, Jew and Gentile are Church. That does not mean that the church is spiritual Israel. I went into some detail about that in my last post. #49.
There is no such thing as a temporal church age in the scripture Mike. There is "This Age" and "The Age to Come," both separated by the tribulation, Parousia and ressurection of the Sea, Death and Hades Dead. During the millenium, it is still considered to be "This Age" in the scriptures because it precceeds the ROTD.
The writers tell us differently.

Would you like a full rebuttal of all your posts #41, 43, 47 and 49?

Or should I say...would you like to engage...or not? Ok if you don't.
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
There is no such thing as a temporal church age in the scripture Mike. There is "This Age" and "The Age to Come," both separated by the tribulation, Parousia and ressurection of the Sea, Death and Hades Dead. During the millenium, it is still considered to be "This Age" in the scriptures because it precceeds the ROTD.
The writers tell us differently.

Would you like a full rebuttal of all your posts #41, 43, 47 and 49?

Or should I say...would you like to engage...or not? Ok if you don't.
We all know you like to debate. And everyone should know by now that I do not. I simply provide information. And with that in mind I will simply provide this thread of mine on dispensations.

Dispensations In The Bible


There are four dispensations. Gentiles, Israel, Church, (the Tribulation which is the last remaining seven years of the age of Israel) and the Kingdom Age (Millennium).

The age of the Gentiles is divided into the age of Innocence, conscience, and human government and some theologians consider these to be dispensations in themselves.

Regarding the church age...

Ephesians 3:8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9) and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery (the church-age) which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things, 10) in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11) This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.'



I further invite those who will to simply refer back to my prior posts on this thread with regard to the eternal future of Israel. #43,47, and 49. And study the material.

You either get it or you don't.

Last edited by Mike555; 04-21-2010 at 12:59 AM..
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Old 04-21-2010, 07:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jeremiah 31:35-37 is a promise from God that Israel will exist forever and that the Jews will always be a separate people. Matthew 24:29 in no way annuls God's eternal promises to Israel.


Hi Mike555,

Matthew24:29 does exactly that which was why the tribes of the land mourned. If you read Hebrews you will find Israel is spiritual. That is what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman in John 4.
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Hi Mike555,

Matthew24:29 does exactly that which was why the tribes of the land mourned. If you read Hebrews you will find Israel is spiritual. That is what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman in John 4.

Israel is not spiritual. I assume you meant to say that the church is spiritual Israel. I have already made it clear that it isn't.

Regarding the book of Hebrews, Some Jewish believers who had professed faith in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, were wavering in their attitude and the Epistle was written for the purpose of encouraging them to 'hold fast' as per Heb. 3:6 and go on to maturity as per Heb. 6:1.

Hebrews was written to show that Old Testament Judaism had ended, as Jesus Christ had fulfilled the purpose of the Law. It was also intended to warn professing Christians against going back into Judaism; to warn against stopping short of true faith in Christ, and to focus the attention of Christians on the pre-eminence-the superiority-the excellence of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews contrasts the good things of Judaism with the better things of Christ. The New convenant is better than the old covenant as per Heb. 8:6-13.

Concerning John 4, if you're referring to verse 22 which says '...for salvation is from the Jews', that simply means that the Messiah would come from the Jewish nation and that Knowledge of Him would spread through out the world to all nations.

I have already given a number of passages from both the Old and New Testaments that make it clear that Israel has an eternal future, that state that Israel will be restored at the Second Advent of Christ. I can only present the facts. I can't make anyone believe them. And so I will leave it at this.

I will simply refer readers back to posts #47 and 49.
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Hebrews was written to show that Old Testament Judaism had ended, as Jesus Christ had fulfilled the purpose of the Law
Which explains why there is Messianic Jews today. Israel will never resume OT sacrifices again.
Israel, as an ethnic nation, will never be God's people again. Israel was promised to Abraham's descendants, which includes both Gentile and Jew.

Quote:
We all know you like to debate. And everyone should know by now that I do not.
This is true, but I from what I read here, you do too.
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

Hebrews was written to show that Old Testament Judaism had ended, as Jesus Christ had fulfilled the purpose of the Law. It was also intended to warn professing Christians against going back into Judaism; to warn against stopping short of true faith in Christ, and to focus the attention of Christians on the pre-eminence-the superiority-the excellence of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews contrasts the good things of Judaism with the better things of Christ. The New covenant is better than the old covenant as per Heb. 8:6-13..
Yet the Jews who served Christ before the destruction of the temple still practiced Judaism didn't they? Because the temple had not been trampled under foot...

or did I misunderstand Acts?
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Which explains why there is Messianic Jews today. Israel will never resume OT sacrifices again.
Israel, as an ethnic nation, will never be God's people again. Israel was promised to Abraham's descendants, which includes both Gentile and Jew.



This is true, but I from what I read here, you do too.
No, I let myself get drawn into it sometimes, but I really don't like it. And what is the point? People are going to believe whatever they want to believe. Even now, there is someone on the forum who I thought was squared away in their thinking with regard to the reality of the unbelievers eternal separation from God, who is considering becoming a universalist in their thinking. I will present the facts, but I am not going to waste my time arguing. It's just not worth it. What a person believes is between them and God.
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:36 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,722,697 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, I let myself get drawn into it sometimes, but I really don't like it. And what is the point? People are going to believe whatever they want to believe. Even now, there is someone on the forum who I thought was squared away in their thinking with regard to the reality of the unbelievers eternal separation from God, who is considering becoming a universalist in their thinking. I will present the facts, but I am not going to waste my time arguing. It's just not worth it. What a person believes is between them and God.
Mike I appreciate your eloquent posts, but aren't you often presenting your beliefs?
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