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Old 04-21-2010, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,201,845 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
What a person believes is between them and God.
Absolutely.
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:07 PM
 
12,609 posts, read 8,072,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Israel is not spiritual. I assume you meant to say that the church is spiritual Israel. I have already made it clear that it isn't.

.
Hi Mike555,

You assumed wrong. Israel is spiritual. What you are saying is a straw man. The church does not replace Israel. Its grafted into spiritual Israel. As I always ask, just show me one verse in the NT that indicates a return to Israel.


Hebrews 11

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[c] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
Galatians 4

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
You took John 4 out of context and just made it up. You just lopped off the rest and completely distorted its meaning. Its says no one will be going to Jerusalem to worship.

John 4
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
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Old 04-21-2010, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Since I affirm that all scripture is inerrant and truth without error, I would affirm that every verse of scripture that is quoted is true also. They are grammatically and logically true and there would be no scriptural verse that could be quoted that would contradict any verse of scripture that is quoted.

The problem I have with Fleshly Israel's conclusion as being the heirs of promise "conclusions" is they are not logically valid

Paul's Roman letter was addressed to ALL that were in Rome and his statement in 4:1 acknowledges that Abraham was the father according to the flesh of some of ALL of those who were in Rome. There is no inclusive language in 4:1 that necessarily requires that all who were in Rome had Abraham according to the flesh as their father as is claimed. Paul is very specific about the blessings of Abraham and that THEY INCLUDED THE GENTILES AS ISRAEL.

Israel, one Israel, only one, is Jew and Gentile. Spiritually and Physically.
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Old 04-21-2010, 07:27 PM
 
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acts 13:

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

This was not peter here, but paul, the apostle unto the gentiles, who makes this very important statement, and sheds much light upon for whom Jesus christ came to save as according to promise..

Another important scripture that lends to the truth of this is lk 1:


68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [see matt 1 21]

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70As he spake [or promised] by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

This promise of redemption of His people, as the Lord God of Israel, hath been revealed and promised since the world began..

This takes us back to the first proclamation of the promised salvation or redemption to gen 3:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

This seed of the women would be Israel [christ and his people]..and the which, salvations first promise is to and for this seed Israel, the seed of the women..

This is some what typed out or signified in rev 12:


1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [the birth of Jesus christ]

This women had also a seed as we see later in this chpt 12 of rev:

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. [ so christ and his members are the seed of the women gal 3 16]

So salvation and redemption from the conception of the world, had only a particular seed in view, which later became known as Israel..

But now, its important to understand, that the Israel paul is referring to in acts 13 23..is not israel according to the flesh..but Israel according to promise..

Lets show here how paul discerned another Israel other than national Israel rom 9:

Not as though the word [or promise] of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [acts 13:23,] which are of Israel [nationally]:

You see, the promises of redemption and salvation as stated in lk 68-70, to the people of God, the God of Israel, the promise was not to national israel..but a spiritual remnant within that nation, and as we will find out, a spiritual remant among the nations of the world, which constituted Israel,[rom 11] the one paul preached in acts 13:

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Now paul had the Israel of God [rom 9:6] in view when he made this statement in the above..

Now get this next point, for its tricky, but nevertheless its extremely important because of the symmerty and anology of scripture.

The difference between what paul preached here in acts 13 23 and what peter taught here in acts 5:

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The difference is this..for peter was correct in that Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God to give repentance to a certain chosen people Israel..but what peter did not know but what paul did know..is this:

That Israel was no longer viewed as a mere physical ethnic nation, but that israel was comprised of gentiles as well, who became israel..

Notice..eph 2:

12That at that time ye [gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

They [gentiles] are now no more strangers and aliens, but fellowcitizens [of Israel Gods chosen people] and so now they too have the same right to be called Israel,

in fact, even more of a right than the non elect jews of that nation..because the israel of God was never non elect Jews, but elect jews like jacob over easu or Isaach over ishmael..children of promise..

So salvation and redemption has always been limited unto Israel as a people, but the mystery that was not clearly unveiled since the world began [gen 3 15]

eph 3:


3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [lk 1 68-70]

In that Israel was made up of Gentiles too.. Yes thats the unveiling in more detail by paul of this mystery..[Israel of God was never a physical nation but a spiritual people rom 2]

but nevertheless, true to promise, salvation and redemption is and has always been limited to a chosen people [Israel]..not limited to a certain geogrpaphical location as national israel in the middle east or a certain ethical people [respect of persons], but the scope of this Israel of God is world wide..but nevertheless its only to the world of Gods Israel, all others, are blinded..

You know how paul says in rom 9 6

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

So likewise, they are not all the world [for whom christ died] which are of the world [the inhabited earth]

Just like there was an Israel within israel that God had a respect and favor too, likewise there is a world within the world that God has a special regard too, and that world is the Israel of God, the spiritual seed of abraham..
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Old 04-21-2010, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,603,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God did not intend for the believer to just read the Bible entirely on his own without being under the teaching ministry of a pastor/teacher. That is why the Holy Spirit gives the gift of pastor/teacher to certain men, who must then prepare by means of academic study so that they may teach the word of God to those who are under their ministry. The believer can understand some things on his own, but to advance spiritually, one must place himself under a qualified pastor.
This is the wide open door for church tradition to make null the message of God.

And for charlatans to do their swindles.

1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him".
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Old 04-21-2010, 11:54 PM
 
12,647 posts, read 6,502,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
This is the wide open door for church tradition to make null the message of God.

And for charlatans to do their swindles.

1 John 2:27 "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him".
Pitting the Word of God Against Itself
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:40 AM
 
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Default Salvation Limited to Israel




Here are some more scriptures that set forth the particular nature of salvation from types..

In looking forward to the work of the cross and its accomplishments and its attending blessings, and to who they applied, we have this in zech 12:

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Notice here to whom the spiritual blessings of repentance was to be poured out to..

Not everyone in the whole wide world, but to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem..

The Jerusalem here is not the city in Israel, but the Jerusalem from above:

gal 4:

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

heb 12:

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Zech 12 is describing their conversion because of the power and blessings of the cross..

Notice it says the house of David ! The House of David or the Tabernacle of David includes the gentiles..

This we see acts 15:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.


15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

The gentiles are called the tabernacle of David, intimating the mystery that Paul fully taught about in His Ministry, but we see here that the apostle James had somewhat been enlightened of the scripture, for he quotes amos 9:


11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

And he of course applies this to the out calling of a people from amongst the gentiles to be a people for Gods name sake..The LORD GOD OF ISRAEL..

Zech 13:

1In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Again, particularly pointing out to whom the fountain was open to..that cleanses from sin and uncleanness [the blood of Christ] it was not to or for all mankind, but for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the house of David.

These designations indicate Gods elect apart from the other inhabitants of the world..

So God has always kept a particular discriminate people to whom He deals with favorably, over and above other people..and its by His grace alone.. and this is Israel of promise..
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Old 04-25-2010, 04:46 AM
 
12,647 posts, read 6,502,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Hi Mike555,

You assumed wrong. Israel is spiritual. What you are saying is a straw man. The church does not replace Israel. Its grafted into spiritual Israel. As I always ask, just show me one verse in the NT that indicates a return to Israel.


Hebrews 11

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[c] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
Galatians 4

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
You took John 4 out of context and just made it up. You just lopped off the rest and completely distorted its meaning. Its says no one will be going to Jerusalem to worship.

John 4
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

To the contrary. Regarding what I said in post #56 about John 4:22...

John 4:22 ''You worship that which you do not know, we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews.''

John 4 Wesley's Notes on the Bible

quote
4:22 Ye worship ye know not what - Ye Samaritans are ignorant, not only of the place, but of the very object of worship. Indeed, they feared the Lord after a fashion; but at the same time served their own god's. 2Kings 17:33. Salvation is from the Jews - So spake all the prophets, that the Savior should arise out of the Jewish nation; and that from thence the knowledge of Him should spread to all nations under heaven.
unquote


John 4 Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible

quote
Those who by the Scriptures have obtained some knowledge of God, know whom they worship. The word of salvation was of the Jews. It came to other nations through them. Christ justly preferred the Jewish worship before the Samaritan, yet here he speaks of the former as soon to be done away. God was about to be revealed as the Father of all believers in every nation.
unquote

I have in my previous posts on this thread #43, 47, 49, 54, and 56, shown passages and shown links which show passages from both the Old and New Testament that pertain to the future of Israel. READ THEM!!!

I have also just done a new thread concerning Replacement Theology.

Israel's Eternal Future; the Church is Not Spiritual Israel

Those who won't bother to go into any of the links and who will not bother to research the passages will learn nothing. Those who deny the future of national Israel, especially when Israel is already partially back in the land in unbelief, in preparation for the Tribulation which will serve to awaken Israel to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah who they rejected, and at which point Jesus Christ will return to the earth to rescue Jerusalem from the armies of the antichrist as per Matthew 23:37-39; Rev. 19:11-19; Zech. chapter 14, are simply not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Here is an older thread of mine on the significance of modern day Israel being back in the land...

Important: The Significance of Modern Day Israel Back in the Land

And here is a link to a broadcast of a radio ministry of the Berean Call called 'Search the Scriptures Daily'. This broadcast discusses the yet to be fulfilled prophecies concerning the nation Israel.

Are You A Preterist Or A Futurist? | thebereancall.org
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Old 04-25-2010, 01:13 PM
 
12,609 posts, read 8,072,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. Regarding what I said in post #56 about John 4:22...

John 4:22 ''You worship that which you do not know, we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews.''

John 4 Wesley's Notes on the Bible

quote
4:22 Ye worship ye know not what - Ye Samaritans are ignorant, not only of the place, but of the very object of worship. Indeed, they feared the Lord after a fashion; but at the same time served their own god's. 2Kings 17:33. Salvation is from the Jews - So spake all the prophets, that the Savior should arise out of the Jewish nation; and that from thence the knowledge of Him should spread to all nations under heaven.
unquote


John 4 Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible

quote
Those who by the Scriptures have obtained some knowledge of God, know whom they worship. The word of salvation was of the Jews. It came to other nations through them. Christ justly preferred the Jewish worship before the Samaritan, yet here he speaks of the former as soon to be done away. God was about to be revealed as the Father of all believers in every nation.
unquote

I have in my previous posts on this thread #43, 47, 49, 54, and 56, shown passages and shown links which show passages from both the Old and New Testament that pertain to the future of Israel. READ THEM!!!

I have also just done a new thread concerning Replacement Theology.

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/958506-israels-eternal-future-church-not-spiritual.html

Those who won't bother to go into any of the links and who will not bother to research the passages will learn nothing. Those who deny the future of national Israel, especially when Israel is already partially back in the land in unbelief, in preparation for the Tribulation which will serve to awaken Israel to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah who they rejected, and at which point Jesus Christ will return to the earth to rescue Jerusalem from the armies of the antichrist as per Matthew 23:37-39; Rev. 19:11-19; Zech. chapter 14, are simply not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Here is an older thread of mine on the significance of modern day Israel being back in the land...

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/900961-important-significance-modern-day-israel-back.html

And here is a link to a broadcast of a radio ministry of the Berean Call called 'Search the Scriptures Daily'. This broadcast discusses the yet to be fulfilled prophecies concerning the nation Israel.

Are You A Preterist Or A Futurist? | thebereancall.org

Hi Mike555,

I am not going to wade through your referrals. My posts stand on their own. You just take things out of context and rephrase it. In your referral to speak half truths:

Hebrews contrasts the good things of Judaism with the better things of Christ. The New convenant is better than the old covenant as per Heb. 8:6-13.

If you look at the end of the chapter is says:
13 In that He says, “A new covenant, He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Its not just better. The old is obsolete. That is why I am not interested in your posts, referrals, or broadcasts. I'll let my posts stand on their own.


This idea of Israel coming back into the Land in partial unbelief is contrary to the Law. It does not work that way. When Israel was loyal to God, they were brought to the Land. When they rebelled, they were scattered. Thus your explanation can't be right.

You said:

Those who won't bother to go into any of the links and who will not bother to research the passages will learn nothing. Those who deny the future of national Israel, especially when Israel is already partially back in the land in unbelief,
Biblical research reveals:

Deuteronomy 30
1 “Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you, 2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you. 4 If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you.
If Israel is being gathered into the Land in unbelief, then Deuteronomy is wrong. Since I believe Revelation was a judgment that scattered Israel after there return from Babylonian exile, I have no such problem.
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Old 04-25-2010, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
7,884 posts, read 4,547,332 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

Does anyone really think that the state of Israel as a nation today is what they were referring to back then?
There were two separate kingdoms, Israel in the north and Judah in the south. Ten of the twelve tribes were in Israel. They were scattered by the Assyrians and became known as the lost tribes of Israel. Guess what? They're still lost.
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