Israel's regathering - a curious observation (punishment, doctrine, church, Messiah)

[InsaneInDaMembrane]

In THIS thread, I responded to someone using some cut and paste material to prove that Israel's establishment in 1948 was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. What has ALWAYS been interesting to me is that such prophecies are strictly relegated to the Old Testament. Take careful note. You would be hard pressed to find such glorious predictions in the New Testament. Why?

I am sure some will say, "well the New Testament is under the dispensation of grace (church age) so it is not concerned with Israel's regathering," however, I find this explanation rather lacking. I also know some will point to the "fig tree" analogy, but that too is not exactly conclusive. Even the book of Revelation, supposedly the book that details THE END is rather silent about any great regathering prediction of Israel becoming a nation again in the distant future.

Isn't it far more likely that the Old Testament writers were writing about their times and THEIR immediate futures? At the time the Jews were indeed scattered all over the place and the religious community, notably the prophets, believed that god was going to restore them all to the land, beat up Israel's enemies and make Jerusalem the centerpiece of worship. To some degree, the Jews did regain their land, re-established Jerusalem as their capital and fought successful "holy wars" to keep it that way. Could this have something to do with why none of the New Testament writers concerned themselves with an issue that had already passed?

[allenk893]

How many posts will you make in a day? Seven hundred?!! Yes my "cut and paste AND EDITED HTML" post was very informative wasn't it? Eye opening wasn't it? But the fact is, I'm not going to entertain you with responding directly to this post. I posted my information and scripture from the bible numerous times and you still are trying to debate. Now, I sincerely believe your just fishing for fights. There's only so many times you can do back around in circles with the same conversation. I was going to respond to your post today until I found out it got locked yet again. Probably from the sarcasm from you atheist. Lol. hehehe.

But no all games and religion aside, I really tried to be nice to you Insane and I tried to be respectful but every time I did, you came back with more sarcasm, with more aggression, with more jokes as if you didn't even respect the fact that this is our beliefs. There comes a point in time when you just have to live and let live. I don't criticize atheist for being atheist. I don't criticize muslims for being muslim. And etc. What I do criticize you for is if you deliberately and menacingly offend Christianity and Jesus Christ. That's what I get heated about. That's where my temper stems from. That's when I have to go in defense mode because it doesn't make sense your hostility towards only us. I have much faith in the Lord and it isn't ever going to change. Call me all the names in the world and try to say everything you want about us Christians but it will not prosper. I love the Lord and he loves me and he loves you too. He's still there for you and all you gotta do is call. Get your inheritance!!

[InsaneInDaMembrane]

Originally Posted by allenk893

How many posts will you make in a day? Seven hundred?!! Yes my "cut and paste AND EDITED HTML" post was very informative wasn't it? Eye opening wasn't it? But the fact is, I'm not going to entertain you with responding directly to this post. I posted my information and scripture from the bible numerous times and you still are trying to debate. Now, I sincerely believe your just fishing for fights. There's only so many times you can do back around in circles with the same conversation. I was going to respond to your post today until I found out it got locked yet again. Probably from the sarcasm from you atheist. Lol. hehehe.

But no all games and religion aside, I really tried to be nice to you Insane and I tried to be respectful but every time I did, you came back with more sarcasm, with more aggression, with more jokes as if you didn't even respect the fact that this is our beliefs. There comes a point in time when you just have to live and let live. I don't criticize atheist for being atheist. I don't criticize muslims for being muslim. And etc. What I do criticize you for is if you deliberately and menacingly offend Christianity and Jesus Christ. That's what I get heated about. That's where my temper stems from. That's when I have to go in defense mode because it doesn't make sense your hostility towards only us. I have much faith in the Lord and it isn't ever going to change. Call me all the names in the world and try to say everything you want about us Christians but it will not prosper. I love the Lord and he loves me and he loves you too. He's still there for you and all you gotta do is call. Get your inheritance!!

You see to have a little complex there, bro. I mean, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but you keep seeing what is not there. I am not trying to pick fights, sir. I have LOTS of time on my hands and I LOVE to debate the finer points of religion, namely Christianity which was 30 years of my life and the world I grew up in. This is why I am here. I know it gets on some people's nerves, but you will be hard pressed to find one place where I EVER disrespected any person on any of these forums. Yes, I will challenge a belief, even use subtle sarcasm (which I have toned down to spare feelings) to MAKE a point, but I don't know anyone here personally so I have ANYTHING to say about anyone on a negative note. You on the other hand have set aside some choice words for atheists so you might want to really check things out a little better my friend.

I HOPE constructive criticism is permitted and I hope you don't come back with anything to get this thread shut down because there are others who might want to answer.

[scgraham]

Against all human odds, God has been, and still is, regathering the Jews back to their land. The stage is being set. I wonder how many scoffers there were 100 years ago who said it would be impossible for such a thing?

Through the mighty prophet Daniel, God issued punishment for the Jews of 70 weeks. One week = seven years. 69 weeks, or 483 years, were accomplished when Messiah [Jesus] was cut off. One week, or 7 years, is still left to be accomplished for Israel's disobedience; this one week is known as the seven-year tribulation period -- and it's on the horizon.

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane

In THIS thread, I responded to someone using some cut and paste material to prove that Israel's establishment in 1948 was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. What has ALWAYS been interesting to me is that such prophecies are strictly relegated to the Old Testament. Take careful note. You would be hard pressed to find such glorious predictions in the New Testament. Why?

I am sure some will say, "well the New Testament is under the dispensation of grace (church age) so it is not concerned with Israel's regathering," however, I find this explanation rather lacking. I also know some will point to the "fig tree" analogy, but that too is not exactly conclusive. Even the book of Revelation, supposedly the book that details THE END is rather silent about any great regathering prediction of Israel becoming a nation again in the distant future.

Isn't it far more likely that the Old Testament writers were writing about their times and THEIR immediate futures? At the time the Jews were indeed scattered all over the place and the religious community, notably the prophets, believed that god was going to restore them all to the land, beat up Israel's enemies and make Jerusalem the centerpiece of worship. To some degree, the Jews did regain their land, re-established Jerusalem as their capital and fought successful "holy wars" to keep it that way. Could this have something to do with why none of the New Testament writers concerned themselves with an issue that had already passed?

Old Testament prophecies often contain both a near term and a far term view. For instance, Isaiah 61:1-3 speaks of the First Advent of Christ in verse 1 and the first half of verse 2 and then in the second half of verse 2 and onward, it goes right into the Second Advent of Christ, completely leaving out any mention of the intervening church-age which was kept secret until Christ first mentioned it in Matthew 16:18. In Luke 4:17-19, Jesus quotes from the Isaiah passage and stops after verse 19 where it says 'To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord'. In the reading of that scroll, Jesus had fulfilled the prophecy up to the point of Isaiah 61:2a. The rest of the prophecy will be fulfilled at His Second Advent.

When Christ returns, He returns to an existing nation Israel and rescues her from the armies of the antichrist in what is known as the Armeggedon Campaign (Zech. 14; Matt.24:29-31; Rev. 16:13-16; Rev. 19:11-21). At His return He fully regathers Israel to the land.
.
For those with an interest in the significance of modern day Israel, here is some material for study. Passages are given which speak of Israel's partial regathering in a state of unbelief.

Important: The Significance of Modern Day Israel Back in the Land

[ans57]

Originally Posted by scgraham

Against all human odds, God has been, and still is, regathering the Jews back to their land. The stage is being set. I wonder how many scoffers there were 100 years ago who said it would be impossible for such a thing?

Through the mighty prophet Daniel, God issued punishment for the Jews of 70 weeks. One week = seven years. 69 weeks, or 483 years, were accomplished when Messiah [Jesus] was cut off. One week, or 7 years, is still left to be accomplished for Israel's disobedience; this one week is known as the seven-year tribulation period -- and it's on the horizon.

Or 7 thousand years?

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane

In THIS thread, I responded to someone using some cut and paste material to prove that Israel's establishment in 1948 was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. What has ALWAYS been interesting to me is that such prophecies are strictly relegated to the Old Testament. Take careful note. You would be hard pressed to find such glorious predictions in the New Testament. Why?

I am sure some will say, "well the New Testament is under the dispensation of grace (church age) so it is not concerned with Israel's regathering," however, I find this explanation rather lacking. I also know some will point to the "fig tree" analogy, but that too is not exactly conclusive. Even the book of Revelation, supposedly the book that details THE END is rather silent about any great regathering prediction of Israel becoming a nation again in the distant future.

Isn't it far more likely that the Old Testament writers were writing about their times and THEIR immediate futures? At the time the Jews were indeed scattered all over the place and the religious community, notably the prophets, believed that god was going to restore them all to the land, beat up Israel's enemies and make Jerusalem the centerpiece of worship. To some degree, the Jews did regain their land, re-established Jerusalem as their capital and fought successful "holy wars" to keep it that way. Could this have something to do with why none of the New Testament writers concerned themselves with an issue that had already passed?

If only we could talk to them (1st Century Jews) I believe you would hear that half the prophecies some Christians take to be in our future were fulfilled prior to the 1st century. The re-gathering of Israel was foretold and the subsequent scattering after the destruction was also predicted.... Yet there isn't another re-gathering mentioned in the NT... The silence does say a lot.

Besides that, how would the nation of Israel which is made up of all different religions be a fulfillment?

Jewish 76.4%, Muslim 16%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% NationMaster - Israeli Religion statistics

Does anyone really think that the state of Israel as a nation today is what they were referring to back then?

[InsaneInDaMembrane]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

If only we could talk to them (1st Century Jews) I believe you would hear that half the prophecies some Christians take to be in our future were fulfilled prior to the 1st century. The re-gathering of Israel was foretold and the subsequent scattering after the destruction was also predicted.... Yet there isn't another re-gathering mentioned in the NT... The silence does say a lot.

Besides that, how would the nation of Israel which is made up of all different religions be a fulfillment?

Jewish 76.4%, Muslim 16%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% NationMaster - Israeli Religion statistics

Does anyone really think that the state of Israel as a nation today is what they were referring to back then?

Clearly there are quite a few.

[InsaneInDaMembrane]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Old Testament prophecies often contain both a near term and a far term view. For instance, Isaiah 61:1-3 speaks of the First Advent of Christ in verse 1 and the first half of verse 2 and then in the second half of verse 2 and onward, it goes right into the Second Advent of Christ, completely leaving out any mention of the intervening church-age which was kept secret until Christ first mentioned it in Matthew 16:18. In Luke 4:17-19, Jesus quotes from the Isaiah passage and stops after verse 19 where it says 'To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord'. In the reading of that scroll, Jesus had fulfilled the prophecy up to the point of Isaiah 61:2a. The rest of the prophecy will be fulfilled at His Second Advent.

When Christ returns, He returns to an existing nation Israel and rescues her from the armies of the antichrist in what is known as the Armeggedon Campaign (Zech. 14; Matt.24:29-31; Rev. 16:13-16; Rev. 19:11-21). At His return He fully regathers Israel to the land.
.
For those with an interest in the significance of modern day Israel, here is some material for study. Passages are given which speak of Israel's partial regathering in a state of unbelief.

Important: The Significance of Modern Day Israel Back in the Land

Mike I know all about gap theories, dual prophecies and all that other stuff. I use to rely on them to make the very same points you are making. However, I must ask, why does it seem like one needs a degree in theology to understand all of this? Would a casual reader be able to glean these interpretations just from reading the Bible? Would the "holy spirit' whisper these meanings to them OR is it more likely they would have to read this in apologetic books that contain the interpretation of others OR from their pastors who had these ideas passed down to them?

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane

Mike I know all about gap theories, dual prophecies and all that other stuff. I use to rely on them to make the very same points you are making. However, I must ask, why does it seem like one needs a degree in theology to understand all of this? Would a casual reader be able to glean these interpretations just from reading the Bible? Would the "holy spirit' whisper these meanings to them OR is it more likely they would have to read this in apologetic books that contain the interpretation of others OR from their pastors who had these ideas passed down to them?

God did not intend for the believer to just read the Bible entirely on his own without being under the teaching ministry of a pastor/teacher. That is why the Holy Spirit gives the gift of pastor/teacher to certain men, who must then prepare by means of academic study so that they may teach the word of God to those who are under their ministry. The believer can understand some things on his own, but to advance spiritually, one must place himself under a qualified pastor.

God always has a system in the carrying out of His overall plan. For the dispensation of the church, God's established system with regard to the individual believers spiritual advance involves being under the authority of the pastor/teacher.

Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers. 12) for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13) until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ. 14) As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15) but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ, 16) from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by that which every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, cause the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

After the man with the gift of pastor/teacher has prepared himself through rigorous academic study, he is prepared to go into the word of God and study and dig out the doctrines that are contained in the scriptures and then teach them to his congregation. This is the principle. In practice, most pastors fail to carry out the responsibility that God has entrusted to them. But in every generation, God sees to it that there are prepared pastors who will faithfully utilize their gift and feed the flock.

From the beginning of the church-age it has been so.