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Old 04-21-2010, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,298 posts, read 20,959,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
You don't believe their disobedience could be called sin??

They had only one prohibition, and they couldn't get that right. The directly transgressed God's word. What else should it be called?
A transgression.

If you told a two-year-old not to touch a hot stove top because it would burn him and he went ahead and touched it anyway, would you say he had sinned? Maybe you would. I wouldn't. I believe that knowledge of good and evil is required in order to sin. If you don't know that disobedience is "evil" or "wrong," how can it be a sin?
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Old 04-21-2010, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Regarding the bold above - the command to be fruitful and multiply came before the sin. Therefore they would have had children. Pain in childbirth came after the curse.
Well, I already explained my point of view in my post #25 and I did address this very argument. I can copy and paste my previous post so that you can read it again if that would help. Otherwise, maybe we need to just agree to disagree on this one.
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:22 PM
 
672 posts, read 537,503 times
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Matt 25:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

This Kingdom was prepared for these blessed ones before Adam was created, for they were to inherit it by virtue of their election in Christ, having been made joint heirs with Him, for Christ, before the creation of the worlds [ages] was the rightful Heir of all things Heb 1:

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

eph 1:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This was in Eternity Past, before He created us in Adam. This means that the world, the universe, was founded for Mans existence to fulfill God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus our Lord eph 3:

11 according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

For you see, Adam was created subservient to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ, whereas False religion is building upon the foundation that the Eternal Purpose of Christ was subservient to and a back up plan to God's purpose for Adam. Yet we never read in scripture about God having a Eternal Purpose in Adam ?? If God's Eternal Purpose was in Christ Jesus, how could Adam's creation had been God's Purpose before Christ ? This is just man centered thinking in spite of what scripture says about Christ.
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:09 PM
 
1,492 posts, read 2,228,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Regarding the bold above - the command to be fruitful and multiply came before the sin. Therefore they would have had children. Pain in childbirth came after the curse.
exactly.God said NOW you will give birth in pain (in the fallen state).having a previously perfect genome does not mean Eve could not give birth.it means she would have done so without pain,and without birth defects/deformities,illness/sickness, pregnancy problems and or death.And no stillborn babies,no miscarriages,premature births,etc.
This is the way God originally intended for the human race to be.
BTW-if there was a default plan...(like the dominant genes)..I wonder if it has ever occurred to anyone that THAT alone means there HAD to have been an original plan to begin with.And the original plan did not contain any errors.It was satan who got ahold of it and messed it up.
God commanded Adam and Eve to obey Him for a reason,a PHYSICAL reason...because to choose otherwise,was,just like He said..a death sentence.
JMO.
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I'd like to know what it's like to have no knowledge of good and evil - since that's all we're consumed with now.
Could it have really been GOOD to not have such knowledge? I don't think so. Consider this:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Now we know that what is Truely Good is God. So God intended for Adam and Eve to take of the forbidden fruit so they could be on their way to becoming as He is. And we know that He is GOOD!
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Not new willful sins.

Adam and Eve committed willful sin, and they died just as God said. If the born-again commit willful sin, Jesus' blood no longer protects them.

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
I've done a study on this and it's not talking about believers. This passage is referring to people who hear the gospel (the knowledge of truth) and ignore it. If someone deliberately rejects the sacrifice of Christ after clearly understanding the gospel teaching, then there is no way for that person to be saved because God has not provided any other name under heaven by which we can be saved (Acts 4:12).
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,314 posts, read 14,180,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
A transgression.

If you told a two-year-old not to touch a hot stove top because it would burn him and he went ahead and touched it anyway, would you say he had sinned? Maybe you would. I wouldn't. I believe that knowledge of good and evil is required in order to sin. If you don't know that disobedience is "evil" or "wrong," how can it be a sin?
Yes - it is sin against his parents. There is no biblical mandate against touching a hot stove.

Interesting that Jesus, born outside of the sin nature, did not sin even in his toddler years.
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,314 posts, read 14,180,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I agree that the commandment to be fruitful and multiply was given prior to the fall, so we agree on that much. I just don't believe that Adam and Eve would have been able to obey that commandment had they not eaten the forbidden fruit. I believe that it only when they were changed from immortal to mortal beings (being subject to death) that they were also able to be co-creators, along with God, of new life. I'm not saying they didn't have all the necessary body parts. I just see the entire cycle of life as being a strictly mortal one, and that until their state was changed from one where death was impossible to one where it was an absolute eventuality, the same holds true with respect to the ability to reproduce.

If you ask me for chapter and verse to support this conclusion, I'm not going to be able to give it to you, and I admit that at the outset. I do think it's worth noting, though, that it was only after they ate the forbidden fruit that they realized that they were naked. I see this as symbolic of the childlike state of sexual innocence in which they existed until after the fall. Take any sexually mature man and woman and place them alone somewhere and they're definitely going to know that they're naked! I believe that the references to Adam's and Eve's lack of realization that they were naked can be understood to say that even though they had all the right equipment from the start, it's unreasonable to think that they would have been having sexual relations all along. While the Bible doesn't say that they did not have sexual relations prior to the fall, the first time it is specifically mentioned that "Adam knew His wife" was after they were cast out.
Somehow animals reproduce just fine without knowing that they are naked. The desire to reproduce is in them.

Adam and Eve were the same.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,298 posts, read 20,959,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Somehow animals reproduce just fine without knowing that they are naked. The desire to reproduce is in them.

Adam and Eve were the same.
Whatever. I disagree. I am curious, though, why do you think the Bible made a point of telling us that they didn't know they were naked until after they ate the forbidden fruit? Do you see this fact as having any significance at all?
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,298 posts, read 20,959,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
So God intended for Adam and Eve to take of the forbidden fruit so they could be on their way to becoming as He is. And we know that He is GOOD!
I don't hear very many people say this. I'm glad to know there are a few of us.
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