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Old 04-23-2010, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,649,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I don't hear very many people say this. I'm glad to know there are a few of us.
Hi Katzpur, I don't know how anyone in light of scripture can conclude otherwise. God obviously wanted and intended for man to fail for the very reason of saving Him and bring man more into God's own nature.

We find evidence of that :

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


So we can look at Adam's fall in two perspectives - 1) that God's plan failed and Adam fell thwarting what God intended for him. 2) that God intended for Adam to fall so that God could using falling as an education in righteousness.

You see it was #2 above that God is using to teach of is His nature. But others will continue to preach that God failed (obviously not using those words but implying that meaning none the less).
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Old 04-23-2010, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,380 posts, read 14,252,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Whatever. I disagree. I am curious, though, why do you think the Bible made a point of telling us that they didn't know they were naked until after they ate the forbidden fruit? Do you see this fact as having any significance at all?
In the narrative of the account, it's important because the first thing they did was cover themselves - and after God pronounced His cursings, the Lord provided covering for them. It was also the reason they hid from God.

It also contrasts Gen. 2:25 were they were naked and unashamed.

So the fact that they did not know they were naked is simply part of the account. There is nothing else that supports the view that you are advancing.
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:39 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,322 posts, read 21,018,829 times
Reputation: 10017
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
There is nothing else that supports the view that you are advancing.
Well, nothing you'd accept as valid. That's okay. We can disagree on this point. We'll probably find something to agree on down the road somewhere.
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:40 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,322 posts, read 21,018,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Hi Katzpur, I don't know how anyone in light of scripture can conclude otherwise. God obviously wanted and intended for man to fail for the very reason of saving Him and bring man more into God's own nature.

We find evidence of that :

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


So we can look at Adam's fall in two perspectives - 1) that God's plan failed and Adam fell thwarting what God intended for him. 2) that God intended for Adam to fall so that God could using falling as an education in righteousness.

You see it was #2 above that God is using to teach of is His nature. But others will continue to preach that God failed (obviously not using those words but implying that meaning none the less).
From what you're saying, I'm guessing that you don't look at Adam and Eve with quite the contempt most people do, either.

Last edited by Katzpur; 04-24-2010 at 01:11 AM..
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:03 AM
 
5,761 posts, read 4,608,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Hi Katzpur, I don't know how anyone in light of scripture can conclude otherwise. God obviously wanted and intended for man to fail for the very reason of saving Him and bring man more into God's own nature.

We find evidence of that :

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


So we can look at Adam's fall in two perspectives - 1) that God's plan failed and Adam fell thwarting what God intended for him. 2) that God intended for Adam to fall so that God could using falling as an education in righteousness.

You see it was #2 above that God is using to teach of is His nature. But others will continue to preach that God failed (obviously not using those words but implying that meaning none the less).

I totally agree.
His plan is perfect.
The tree was put there for a reason.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:08 AM
 
3,595 posts, read 468,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
I totally agree.
His plan is perfect.
The tree was put there for a reason.
Yup
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,322 posts, read 21,018,829 times
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You know, I don't think it's so much that people think God's plan failed (that would, of course, place the blame on God). Instead, they think that Adam and Eve messed up royally and it's all their fault that things didn't go the way God wanted them to. What is so hard for me to understand is how they could really see it going down any other way. I mean we have these two absolutely innocent young adults who have been placed in this incredible paradise, told to start having children and told that they could eat anything growing in the garden except for the fruit of one particular tree. They're told that if they do, they'll die. Pretty soon along comes the single most deceitful, evil, conniving being to have ever existed and he tells them that they're not going to die by eating the fruit. On the contrary, they'll be like the gods themselves. Adam and Eve had never experienced death. They'd never even seen anything else die. The promise of godhood was simply too good to pass up. Of course they ate the fruit! Now can anybody really believe that this came as any great surprise to God? If He hadn't wanted them to eat it, why on earth did He allow the master manipulator of all time to tempt them? It couldn't have been to give them free will. They'd have had free will whether Satan was a factor in the equation or not. As a matter of fact, if God had just told them not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and left it at that, they probably wouldn't have done. So was God just not thinking straight? Was allowing Satan to tempt them just an oversight? Of course not! It was part of the plan. God knew exactly what He was doing and He did what He did for Adam's and Eve's ultimate benefit. It kind of seems like a no-brainer to me, but I guess we all have our own ways of looking at things.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:39 AM
 
1,492 posts, read 2,231,514 times
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I agree that was the game plan,after all,God is sovereign and He knows the future and all that is yet to happen.I have only stated what I thought the original plan was *supposed to be,had they not gone against God.
If it appears I'm thinking differently than most,it's because I tend to look for things in the physical realm,not the emotional one.IOW-I think God told them to behave themselves for a physical reason (so no harm would come to them) yet they disobeyed,and it wasn't because God was angry over it that they now knew death;it was due to literally a physical change in them.
That said,it was still up to them,although God knew what would happen beforehand.I hope that makes sense.
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:30 AM
 
5,441 posts, read 4,693,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
I've done a study on this and it's not talking about believers. This passage is referring to people who hear the gospel (the knowledge of truth) and ignore it. If someone deliberately rejects the sacrifice of Christ after clearly understanding the gospel teaching, then there is no way for that person to be saved because God has not provided any other name under heaven by which we can be saved (Acts 4:12).
Not so. Pay very close attention to Verse 29.

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This person had been sanctified and made holy by the blood of the Lamb, but he/she fell from grace into disgrace. Just as Adam and Eve willfully sinned against God, so did this person.

1 Cor.10:12 - Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
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Old 04-24-2010, 07:04 PM
 
701 posts, read 660,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet grace covered all sins...even willful ones. The sin of one man affected all people just as the sacrifice of one man affected all sinners.

Funny that God was not more clear in Gen. 2:17... he said IN THE DAY you eat it.... you shall surely die... yet they didn't die that day.
Actually, their perfect character, their spiritual nature died immediately, that is why they were suddenly "naked". Also, Christ blood on Calvary is available to cover all, but only those that choose to accept His gift of Salvation.
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