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Old 04-22-2010, 04:03 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
So, are you saying that we don't have free will?
A dead man has no will at all...and if you're dead in your sins...then there is nothing you can do for yourself...the choice is entirely up to God whether or not He reveals Himself to you through quickening of your spirit...Faith and repentance come from God...it is not of us...
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Old 04-22-2010, 04:08 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
The way you first worded it you sounded like we have to work hard in order for Christ to save us. I still don't agree with a lot of what you write, I am more of a Calvinist (not hardcore). I think God draws us and chooses us first, now I don't know if he draws all and only some believe but I don't think we are making a choice without being drawn.

If you are going to follow the law you need to follow all 613 laws, not just the top 10.

I prefer to focus on what Jesus said the law is, Love God and love your neighbor. I donít think and focus on individual sins; I really doubt God is keeping a checklist about what sins we commit in our hearts etc. We are free in Christ and God seeís Christ on the cross covering our sins.
you got it...through Christ we have liberty...we are no longer under the law...but under grace...we in ourselves could not merit Salvation, so Christ came and did it for us, that is why through Him we are saved...
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Old 04-22-2010, 04:51 AM
 
701 posts, read 660,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
The way you first worded it you sounded like we have to work hard in order for Christ to save us. I still don't agree with a lot of what you write, I am more of a Calvinist (not hardcore). I think God draws us and chooses us first, now I don't know if he draws all and only some believe but I don't think we are making a choice without being drawn.


I am sorry for not making that clearer. I fully believe that nobody comes to Christ "out of the blue", I mean the only way we can even begin to process those spiritual convictions is through the whisperings of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is their to whisper and to ultimately convict us of truth. No human being ever comes to know spiritual truth on their own it is always at the prodding of the Holy Spirit. Now, that being said, the Holy Spirit does not force our hand in the matter. We can resist his whispering, and the more we do the more we become deaf to His pleadings and whisperings. If we ignore Him enough, we can get to the point were we can no longer hear Him at all, and because we cannot hear Him, he cannot convict us of the wrong in our life and our need of a Savior. That is when we commit the unpardonable sin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post

If you are going to follow the law you need to follow all 613 laws, not just the top 10.

I prefer to focus on what Jesus said the law is, Love God and love your neighbor. I donít think and focus on individual sins; I really doubt God is keeping a checklist about what sins we commit in our hearts etc. We are free in Christ and God seeís Christ on the cross covering our sins.
Regarding the Law you have to go back and study the structure of the different laws. Remember, it isn't as though God wrote down one long list of Laws and we just happen to pick the first 10 or the best 10 or something like that. God Himself set the laws apart from one another, both in the nature in which they were authored as well as how the physical laws were kept and stored. What you have are 5 sets of law; You have 1. the Moral Law (the 10 commandments) 2. you have the ceremonial law (sets up and dictates the sacrificial system, that represented Christ's redemptive work on Calvary) 3. you have the civil law (which was for the governance of a nomadic people recently freed from 400 years of bondage, and these laws would change as the civilization changed) 4. you have the dietary law(I believe this law still stands simply because human physiology is no different than it was when the law was given) and 5. you have the Rabbinical law (these were the laws that the were never scriptural and were full of rules like how many steps someone could take on Sabbath, and other nonsense like that)

Well the rabbinical is what Christ mocked when he did address the Sabbath with the Pharisees, this was a law made up by man and Christ knew it was just to inflate the pompous arrogance of the corrupt leaders of the time. As I mentioned above, I believe the dietary law is still applicable because these were given by God for the health of His people and our physiology is unchanged. The Civil law clearly as indicated in its very name is applicable to a given civilization and is subject to change as the civilization changed, much as our civil laws today change with time. then there is the Ceremonial law, this law was always meant to be temporary as it was a foreshadowing of Christ's work on Calvary's Cross. Remember the curtain in the temple was torn top to bottom to make clear that this law was done, and the sacrificial system was done away with. Which brings us to the Moral law; the 10 Commandments carved in stone. These 10 Commandments are what Christ summarized when He said "Love God with all your heart" (the first 4 commandments tell us how to do that) and "Love thy neighbor as thyself" (the last 6 tell us how to do that). Go back and study them with the Holy Spirit as your guide, and try to find a single one that should feel "burdensome" to any Christian. Each one is about unfailing love.

The Bible says that if we confess our sins, then Christ is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. We are free in Christ, yes, but not free to sin. Christ did shed His blood on Calvary to cleanse us from sin, but the Bible makes it clear that we must repent of our sins. What I'm saying is a career criminal cannot continue in his life of crime, and still claim that he is covered by the blood of Calvary. Christ did indeed die just as much for him as anyone else but he must repent. that is once again where the Holy Spirit comes in, the Holy Spirit is the one that makes him aware of his sin and need of forgiveness, how he responds to the Holy Spirit, is what affects the direction his life takes.

Sorry again for the lack of clarity in my earlier post, i'm still trying to work on getting my thoughts out in a more organized way. god bless you in your continued journey with Christ.
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Old 04-22-2010, 04:58 AM
 
701 posts, read 660,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
A dead man has no will at all...and if you're dead in your sins...then there is nothing you can do for yourself...the choice is entirely up to God whether or not He reveals Himself to you through quickening of your spirit...Faith and repentance come from God...it is not of us...
God never takes away man's ability to choose. I understand that it is only through the whisperings of the Holy Spirit that we come to any spiritual decision in our life but in the end the decision is still ours to make. God is not a dictator, he does not compel people to love Him. He convicts people of truth and they either accept that truth and seek His help in living their lives around it, or they ignore his pleadings and live according to their own ideas of right and wrong. Either way they still have a choice to make.
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,254,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
I am sorry for not making that clearer. I fully believe that nobody comes to Christ "out of the blue", I mean the only way we can even begin to process those spiritual convictions is through the whisperings of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is their to whisper and to ultimately convict us of truth. No human being ever comes to know spiritual truth on their own it is always at the prodding of the Holy Spirit. Now, that being said, the Holy Spirit does not force our hand in the matter. We can resist his whispering, and the more we do the more we become deaf to His pleadings and whisperings. If we ignore Him enough, we can get to the point were we can no longer hear Him at all, and because we cannot hear Him, he cannot convict us of the wrong in our life and our need of a Savior. That is when we commit the unpardonable sin.

Regarding the Law you have to go back and study the structure of the different laws. Remember, it isn't as though God wrote down one long list of Laws and we just happen to pick the first 10 or the best 10 or something like that. God Himself set the laws apart from one another, both in the nature in which they were authored as well as how the physical laws were kept and stored. What you have are 5 sets of law; You have 1. the Moral Law (the 10 commandments) 2. you have the ceremonial law (sets up and dictates the sacrificial system, that represented Christ's redemptive work on Calvary) 3. you have the civil law (which was for the governance of a nomadic people recently freed from 400 years of bondage, and these laws would change as the civilization changed) 4. you have the dietary law(I believe this law still stands simply because human physiology is no different than it was when the law was given) and 5. you have the Rabbinical law (these were the laws that the were never scriptural and were full of rules like how many steps someone could take on Sabbath, and other nonsense like that)

Well the rabbinical is what Christ mocked when he did address the Sabbath with the Pharisees, this was a law made up by man and Christ knew it was just to inflate the pompous arrogance of the corrupt leaders of the time. As I mentioned above, I believe the dietary law is still applicable because these were given by God for the health of His people and our physiology is unchanged. The Civil law clearly as indicated in its very name is applicable to a given civilization and is subject to change as the civilization changed, much as our civil laws today change with time. then there is the Ceremonial law, this law was always meant to be temporary as it was a foreshadowing of Christ's work on Calvary's Cross. Remember the curtain in the temple was torn top to bottom to make clear that this law was done, and the sacrificial system was done away with. Which brings us to the Moral law; the 10 Commandments carved in stone. These 10 Commandments are what Christ summarized when He said "Love God with all your heart" (the first 4 commandments tell us how to do that) and "Love thy neighbor as thyself" (the last 6 tell us how to do that). Go back and study them with the Holy Spirit as your guide, and try to find a single one that should feel "burdensome" to any Christian. Each one is about unfailing love.

The Bible says that if we confess our sins, then Christ is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. We are free in Christ, yes, but not free to sin. Christ did shed His blood on Calvary to cleanse us from sin, but the Bible makes it clear that we must repent of our sins. What I'm saying is a career criminal cannot continue in his life of crime, and still claim that he is covered by the blood of Calvary. Christ did indeed die just as much for him as anyone else but he must repent. that is once again where the Holy Spirit comes in, the Holy Spirit is the one that makes him aware of his sin and need of forgiveness, how he responds to the Holy Spirit, is what affects the direction his life takes.

Sorry again for the lack of clarity in my earlier post, i'm still trying to work on getting my thoughts out in a more organized way. god bless you in your continued journey with Christ.
HalfNelson...This is, by far, one of the most wonderful posts I've ever read on this forum...excellant description of the difference in the laws. Thank you so much for sharing this...God Bless you.
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Old 04-22-2010, 10:28 AM
 
Location: US
26,465 posts, read 14,047,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
God never takes away man's ability to choose. I understand that it is only through the whisperings of the Holy Spirit that we come to any spiritual decision in our life but in the end the decision is still ours to make. God is not a dictator, he does not compel people to love Him. He convicts people of truth and they either accept that truth and seek His help in living their lives around it, or they ignore his pleadings and live according to their own ideas of right and wrong. Either way they still have a choice to make.
God does not plead with anyone, He chooses who He wants to save and who He wants to pass over...it is in scripture...your spirit must be regenerated in order to see the truth...and that regeneration comes only from God...and God chooses who He will have mercy on and who He will harden...that also is in the scripture...it is all according to His secret council and according to His Sovreignty...
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Old 04-23-2010, 02:54 AM
 
701 posts, read 660,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
God does not plead with anyone, He chooses who He wants to save and who He wants to pass over...it is in scripture...your spirit must be regenerated in order to see the truth...and that regeneration comes only from God...and God chooses who He will have mercy on and who He will harden...that also is in the scripture...it is all according to His secret council and according to His Sovreignty...
Please, what scripture tells you that God is arbitrary, and picking and chosing who He will save? My Bible tells me that it is God's will that all would be saved, but it makes it very clear that all won't be saved. God never forces His will on us, in the end the choice is ours.
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Old 04-23-2010, 04:19 AM
 
Location: US
26,465 posts, read 14,047,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Please, what scripture tells you that God is arbitrary, and picking and chosing who He will save? My Bible tells me that it is God's will that all would be saved, but it makes it very clear that all won't be saved. God never forces His will on us, in the end the choice is ours.
It is throughout the entire Bible...The Chosen, The Elect...I chose you, you did not choose me, i sought you, you did not seek me....no one comes to the Father except through the Son, and no one comes to the Son except the Father draws him...Those that the Father gives Me I will not lose...I have reserved for Myself 7000 that will not bow their knee to Baal...a slave does the will of his master...we were once slaves to sin, now we are slaves to Righteousness...I declare the end from the beginning, that from ancient times not yet done...nothing happens without Him having made it happen...i can go on and on...
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Old 04-25-2010, 10:36 PM
 
701 posts, read 660,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
It is throughout the entire Bible...The Chosen, The Elect...I chose you, you did not choose me, i sought you, you did not seek me....no one comes to the Father except through the Son, and no one comes to the Son except the Father draws him...Those that the Father gives Me I will not lose...I have reserved for Myself 7000 that will not bow their knee to Baal...a slave does the will of his master...we were once slaves to sin, now we are slaves to Righteousness...I declare the end from the beginning, that from ancient times not yet done...nothing happens without Him having made it happen...i can go on and on...
Context, context, context............. what about "I set before you life and death. please, choose life that ye may live" ? What are your thoughts then on this. If God chooses who will love Him and who will not, how is that love? If God is choosing who will be saved and who will not, why are we still here 2000 years after the cross? If it was all finalized at Calvary why the continued human struggle against sin?
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Old 04-25-2010, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,321 posts, read 21,009,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Context, context, context............. what about "I set before you life and death. please, choose life that ye may live" ? What are your thoughts then on this. If God chooses who will love Him and who will not, how is that love? If God is choosing who will be saved and who will not, why are we still here 2000 years after the cross? If it was all finalized at Calvary why the continued human struggle against sin?
I couldn't agree more.
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