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Old 04-21-2010, 12:54 AM
 
3,579 posts, read 455,932 times
Reputation: 385

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
I am sorry, I don't get why everyone is so mushy and excited. She was trying to tell the members that they are saved/salvation by grace. She was telling them that Jesus dying on the cross isnít what sends a person to heaven but their good works are.

I donít know many gospel believing churches that would stand for someone preaching another gospel.
Hilgi,

My post was for Verna - In no way do I keep the Sabbath, and what Verna does is between her and God.

She was in a church that she was increasingly feeling that her needs were not met, and I commend her for her decision to do something about it.

Verna does have a right to express what she believes in a respectful way, as everyone does.
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Old 04-21-2010, 01:23 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,474 times
Reputation: 437
Hi Verna,

I do not understand exactly what you are going through, being that I have never been ANYWHERE for 3 years, let alone 8, but I do know the loneliness that comes from stepping out on your own.

I've been without a "church" for quite a while now. It has been very lonely, but I have learned so much after getting away from the "same ole." I really don't think I ever understood exactly what being the "temple" meant. I went to a building every Sunday (church), but I never thought of myself as the church. I thought of the pastor as someone WAY above me that just kinda knew everything. And I sat passively waiting for it all to come together. I never asked any questions until my family kind of exploded when I was younger and "church" became the last thing on my mind.

I tried to go back when I got older, but I never quite felt at "home." I never quite felt "God" there, and I don't know why. It has been a rather interesting experience, and I do miss hanging out with people of like mind. I guess I use that term loosely, though.

I find many people on this board of like mind, and I am not so lonely anymore.

I do "church" at home, now.

(and there are a lot of great teachers and websites on the internet, so that's a plus)
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Old 04-21-2010, 06:38 AM
 
701 posts, read 658,705 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
I am sorry, I don't get why everyone is so mushy and excited. She was trying to tell the members that they are saved/salvation by grace. She was telling them that Jesus dying on the cross isnít what sends a person to heaven but their good works are.

I donít know many gospel believing churches that would stand for someone preaching another gospel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
I remember sitting in church as a kid and seeing a guy stand up and start yelling at the preacher, saying he is wrong etc. We are just hearing one side of the story, how do we know her prayers werenít full of distortions of the saving GRACE of Jesus. What should a church do when people feel their beliefs need to be heard by all?

There are plenty of works churches for her to choose from, making a congregation uncomfortable is not fair to the members.
hilgi, my dear Christian friend. I must share with you something that seems very misunderstood by many Christian churches today and that is, the link between salvation/grace/Law(10 commandments).

Verna has discovered something of profound importance, she has found that Salvation is a process, not a single moment in someones life. Why do you think we are still on this planet, 2000 years after Calvary? Why were there 4000 years before Calvary?

- A guy is out hiking by himself, when he realizes he is very lost. After wandering around for a couple of days he gets his foot stuck in a pool of mud, but when he tries to get it free he realizes that it isn regular mud, it is a quicksand mixture that sucks him in and before he knows it he is up to his waist and sinking at a steady rate. As time goes by, the hiker realizes his time is up and as the mud covers his nose and mouth he closes his eyes and says a prayer. Now, before he gets to the 3rd syllable in the 4th word in his prayer, he feels a hand, grab his still outstretched arm, and in one swift pull yanks him right out of the mud. Now there is the hiker standing there covered head to toe in mud, and as he wipes the mud from his eyes he sees the park Ranger standing there. Before the stunned hiker can say anything, the Ranger pulls out a portable shower and cleans the guy from head to toe and then puts brand new clothes on him. As soon as the hiker is all cleaned up, the Ranger looks him in the eye and says "now follow me" then the Ranger turns around and starts walking down the path. After many days and fighting off many attacks by nature the two emerge from the park and arrive at the safety of the Ranger Station -

Now, was the hiker saved the moment he was pulled from the mud? yes he was.
Was he safe though? Not by himself, he was still in the very dangerous park full of quicksand, snakes and bears, but as long as he followed the Ranger, there was no danger that was too big for them to overcome.
Did the Ranger chain the hiker to Himself? No, the hiker was free to follow for as long or little as he liked, or not follow at all for that matter.
How often did the hiker have to make the choice to follow the Ranger? If he wanted to make it out of the park, then he would have to choose to follow the Ranger every day.
Could the hiker choose to try and find his own way out of the park? Yes, at anytime, remember he was not chained to the Ranger.
When the hiker got lost and stuck again would the Ranger come back to save him? Yes, as many times as He was asked to.
Would the Ranger save him if the hiker didn't ask to be saved? No, the Ranger cannot save those that don't request it.
Does the request have to be verbal? No, the Ranger knows the heart of the hiker.

Now the job of being park Ranger had only one applicant, and even before he applied for the job, the applicant was aware that if His application was accepted, that He would have to undergo 33.5 years of rigorous training, followed by a test that would cost Him all He had, yet He applied for the job just the same. Well, we all know His application for the job was accepted, and the rest is HIStory.

I'm sure you know who the Ranger represents, and who the hiker represents. This is the process of Salvation.
Was the hiker saved because he obeyed the Ranger? No. The Ranger had already pulled him from the mud when He said "now follow me"
Why did the hiker obey the Ranger? Because the Ranger had just saved him, by pulling him out of the mud!
Did the hiker have to obey the Ranger in order to make it to the safety of the Ranger station? Yes.
Does that mean that the hiker earned his own salvation? No, had the Ranger not passed the entrance exam and taken the job, every hiker to ever enter the park would have been forever lost.

The saving GRACE of Jesus. Let's look at that closer.

GRACE has been around since Adam and Eve got kicked out of Eden, yet many Christians seem to use it like it is some new idea that only belongs to the New Testament. Name one person, "saved" before the Cross, who WASN'T saved by GRACE. You can't because anyone who has ever been "saved" has been saved through GRACE. GRACE isn't some new concept it is as old as mankind's need of it. Were the Israelites saved by works or Christ's saving GRACE? They were saved by Christ's saving GRACE. What Christians in this day and age need to understand is that the only thing that separates the Old Testament from the New is HOW we ask for Christ's saving GRACE. Before Calvary, it was done through the sacrificial system, and after Calvary it is done by simply asking for it. Be it kneeling in prayer or just sincerely thinking "God save me" as the mud is about to cover us up. That is the "law" that has been "done away with" the law that dictated HOW we must ask forgiveness for our sins. But rest assured, no person will ever be saved without asking forgiveness for their sins. So it gets back down to what is sin. Well my Bible tells me that it is the transgression of the law. that is the law that has never and will never be done away with, the 10 Commandments. People should really go back and study that story in Exodus 20 again. Those were the 10 things that were so important to God that He had to write it Himself, with His own finger, and in stone no less. Do you realize that it is the only part of the Bible actually written by God Himself? I mean it was so important that when Moses broke the first set, God mad him bring 2 stone slabs back up the mountain so God could be the one to write HIS Law. I am sure Moses had those 10 things memorized and very well could have chiseled them when he cut the new stones, but God said He would be the one to write those down. Then look at where the 10 were placed. INSIDE the Ark of the Covenant, and what went over the contents of the Ark? The Mercy Seat(a symbol of God's throne in Heaven), upon which sat the very presence of God Himself. So, to get to the 10 Commandments you would have to move God and His throne (both of which i think are eternal). All the other ceremonial laws (also called sabbaths, but known not to be THE Sabbath) and civil laws, were written on paper scrolls and placed on the side of the Ark. Seems to me that God had a very clear understanding of what laws were temporary and which ones are just as eternal as He is.


Verna, I hope I didn't hijack your thread too much here. Keep your eye on the Ranger daily, and you will make it to the promised land.
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Old 04-21-2010, 06:42 AM
 
2,983 posts, read 2,258,880 times
Reputation: 469
hang in there Verna.

when you're out/about in your community will you have to see many of your ex- fellow-worshippers regularly?
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Old 04-21-2010, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,239,192 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Hilgi,

My post was for Verna - In no way do I keep the Sabbath, and what Verna does is between her and God.

She was in a church that she was increasingly feeling that her needs were not met, and I commend her for her decision to do something about it.

Verna does have a right to express what she believes in a respectful way, as everyone does.
Thanks meerkat...
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,239,192 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Hi Verna,

I do not understand exactly what you are going through, being that I have never been ANYWHERE for 3 years, let alone 8, but I do know the loneliness that comes from stepping out on your own.

I've been without a "church" for quite a while now. It has been very lonely, but I have learned so much after getting away from the "same ole." I really don't think I ever understood exactly what being the "temple" meant. I went to a building every Sunday (church), but I never thought of myself as the church. I thought of the pastor as someone WAY above me that just kinda knew everything. And I sat passively waiting for it all to come together. I never asked any questions until my family kind of exploded when I was younger and "church" became the last thing on my mind.

I tried to go back when I got older, but I never quite felt at "home." I never quite felt "God" there, and I don't know why. It has been a rather interesting experience, and I do miss hanging out with people of like mind. I guess I use that term loosely, though.

I find many people on this board of like mind, and I am not so lonely anymore.

I do "church" at home, now.

(and there are a lot of great teachers and websites on the internet, so that's a plus)
Dear herefornow,

I do know how you feel, about being lonely...sometimes being a follower of Christ Jesus can get lonely...but one thing I can say...we may be lonely sometimes...but never alone......He is always with us.
Loneliness can be whatever we make it to be...my "lonely" consists of my being absent from human contact...but I thrive the most spiritually in these moments. I study the Word of God...searching and searching for the deeper things in Christ...God speaks...and I listen. For me, silence is preciously golden...I love it. My home is warm and comfortable...my office is set dead center in the middle of my home. I purposefully planted a garden in the front and in the back where I can look out either the front window or the back window, and see a big bird bath in the middle of roses and other pretty flowers...and I watch cardinals, bluejays, wrens, hummingbirds...squirrels and the like all come for their daily morning bath in the warmth of the sun...laugh...or cry with my sweet mother who lives with me...whatever the occassion calls for...and until now, I've been a very active participant with my church...serving the community...being "fruitfull."

Wherever God has me...doing whatever it is that He is having me to do, I've come to realize that that is exactly where He wants me to be.

..Now, it's time to be quiet...to rest in Him...because I have been through a lot. I'm lonely, absent now from the people I have called my "spiritual" family for a long time...but I'm definitely not alone...quite the contrary...I've never been so close to God...I've never heard Him speak so loudly, for so long a season as He has this past year...and especially right now...this past week. He is pleased.

I am glad God led you here to CD...I enjoy reading your thoughts......you have "family" here...and it's quite "the family.."...to say the least...Ha! Ha!...but one in which I have learned the most from...especially that I have a voice...and that is a precious lesson to learn...and we learn how to use it...and stand up for what we believe in...or, like me, because I am teachable, and engage with an open mind, I'm ready to recieve the truth's that God wants me to know...and I found it right here, on CD...the truth...my life has never been so rewarding.

You are so valuable and precious to God...He created you for a purpose...and He loves you with a love that cannot be completely understood or explained...Live for Him herefornow...see Him in everything you do...see Him everywhere you are...you'll never be alone.

God Bless.
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,239,192 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
hilgi, my dear Christian friend. I must share with you something that seems very misunderstood by many Christian churches today and that is, the link between salvation/grace/Law(10 commandments).

Verna has discovered something of profound importance, she has found that Salvation is a process, not a single moment in someones life. Why do you think we are still on this planet, 2000 years after Calvary? Why were there 4000 years before Calvary?........


Verna, I hope I didn't hijack your thread too much here. Keep your eye on the Ranger daily, and you will make it to the promised land.
HalfNelson......in no way have you hijacked this thread...instead you made it even stronger by adding a golden twine to it...thank you for your heart and your insight...you are a precious brother.

God Bless.
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,239,192 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
hang in there Verna.

when you're out/about in your community will you have to see many of your ex- fellow-worshippers regularly?
Good morning gabfest......I will not let go.

No, not unless we meet at the grocery store...the Bible Book Store...or the post office.

What I am hoping will happen is, as word gets out that I have left the church...many of them will call me and we'll get together here in my home and I can finally plant in them the seed of truth that God has given to me. I know God will bring whomever He wants to me...and I will be here with open arms to receive them......I love them so much...and I know they love me too.
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:32 AM
 
Location: US
26,312 posts, read 13,949,854 times
Reputation: 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Good morning gabfest......and thank you.

No, we didn't have an exit interview.

Getting to this point of separation has been quite a journey...something that has been building up now for 14 months...ever since the LORD blessed me with the knowledge of the truth. Since then, more and more every Sunday, every message my pastor taught would in some manner bring tears to my eyes. I would leave feeling as if something had sucked the breath right out of me...where I would have to come home and just cry out to God...sit in His arms, and let Him restore what I had lost there in the service...a very heavy burden to bear.

It took me a long time to leave because I was not willing to let go of what gave me so much pleasure...and what I knew gave the Lord so much pleasure as well...ministering to and praying for the people...leading them into the presence of the LORD in praise and worship, singing the alto part in our ensemble...which gave me so much joy...I only missed maybe 10 Sunday's in eight years...giving love to my First Love......but there just comes a time when you know...when you finally realize, that you have to let go of even the good when it is mixed with bad...when the bad hinders your growth. There was a lot of manipulation and control...and lies. I know God will give me a new song...in a new season.

The straw that broke the camel's back was last Sunday...

Our church has a tradition...we all gather in a circle holding hands and pray 30 minutes before service starts (we are a very small church...no growth in 16 years.....good people keep leaving)...from the very young to the very old we join hands...no one has to pray if they do not want to..so the one's who do have a prayer on their heart, do. I am one of about 6 people who always have a prayer for my church...for the pastor and his wife...and for the people and their needs...

...last Sunday, after our prayer circle had finished...the pastor's wife came up to me and asked me not to pray in the circle anymore...and she said it with a smile...after her initial request, she continued to talk and explain, but I didn't hear anything after that...I was swallowing hard...fighting back the tears...I just couldn't believe it. Her reason was to make the youth pray......they hardly ever pray...they are very shy...there have been a few who do, once in a great while, give a very timid prayer....but it is so precious...I encourage them when they do...but it isn't often.

So I did ask her one thing when she was finished...I asked, "So, what do I do if no one is praying...and there is just silence for a long time?" she replied, "Don't pray anyway...just let it stay silent."...and she walked away.

I did all I could through the rest of the service everytime I thought of it, to keep from crying.

It took me three days to decide that was it, I couldn't take anymore...plus...I never shook off the day, a year ago, when he called me into his office and told me if I ever ministered my beliefs (the truth) to anyone else, and he heard about it, he would have to ask me to leave...since then, I have kept my mouth shut...remained faithful to the ministry of music and prayer that God has given to me, thinking I would be able to balance it all together...but you cannot mix darkness with light...it is an unequal yoke...a very heavy yoke to bear.

But I am free now...praise God!...and it feels so good!...so liberating!
I am sure a lot of people told Christ and the Apostles to keep their mouths shut...But, did they?...Neither should you...i pray that God would give you a spirit of boldness...If you are preaching the Truth, so be it...let no one quench that...but, be sure you have your ducks in a row and nkow what you are talking about through balanced study of the Word using reason and logic, because there are some out there that can tear you up if you are not prepared...God bless you...
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Old 04-21-2010, 11:03 AM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,122,932 times
Reputation: 2840
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
hilgi, my dear Christian friend. I must share with you something that seems very misunderstood by many Christian churches today and that is, the link between salvation/grace/Law(10 commandments).

Verna has discovered something of profound importance, she has found that Salvation is a process, not a single moment in someones life. Why do you think we are still on this planet, 2000 years after Calvary? Why were there 4000 years before Calvary?

- A guy is out hiking by himself, when he realizes he is very lost. After wandering around for a couple of days he gets his foot stuck in a pool of mud, but when he tries to get it free he realizes that it isn regular mud, it is a quicksand mixture that sucks him in and before he knows it he is up to his waist and sinking at a steady rate. As time goes by, the hiker realizes his time is up and as the mud covers his nose and mouth he closes his eyes and says a prayer. Now, before he gets to the 3rd syllable in the 4th word in his prayer, he feels a hand, grab his still outstretched arm, and in one swift pull yanks him right out of the mud. Now there is the hiker standing there covered head to toe in mud, and as he wipes the mud from his eyes he sees the park Ranger standing there. Before the stunned hiker can say anything, the Ranger pulls out a portable shower and cleans the guy from head to toe and then puts brand new clothes on him. As soon as the hiker is all cleaned up, the Ranger looks him in the eye and says "now follow me" then the Ranger turns around and starts walking down the path. After many days and fighting off many attacks by nature the two emerge from the park and arrive at the safety of the Ranger Station -

Now, was the hiker saved the moment he was pulled from the mud? yes he was.
Was he safe though? Not by himself, he was still in the very dangerous park full of quicksand, snakes and bears, but as long as he followed the Ranger, there was no danger that was too big for them to overcome.
Did the Ranger chain the hiker to Himself? No, the hiker was free to follow for as long or little as he liked, or not follow at all for that matter.
How often did the hiker have to make the choice to follow the Ranger? If he wanted to make it out of the park, then he would have to choose to follow the Ranger every day.
Could the hiker choose to try and find his own way out of the park? Yes, at anytime, remember he was not chained to the Ranger.
When the hiker got lost and stuck again would the Ranger come back to save him? Yes, as many times as He was asked to.
Would the Ranger save him if the hiker didn't ask to be saved? No, the Ranger cannot save those that don't request it.
Does the request have to be verbal? No, the Ranger knows the heart of the hiker.

Now the job of being park Ranger had only one applicant, and even before he applied for the job, the applicant was aware that if His application was accepted, that He would have to undergo 33.5 years of rigorous training, followed by a test that would cost Him all He had, yet He applied for the job just the same. Well, we all know His application for the job was accepted, and the rest is HIStory.

I'm sure you know who the Ranger represents, and who the hiker represents. This is the process of Salvation.
Was the hiker saved because he obeyed the Ranger? No. The Ranger had already pulled him from the mud when He said "now follow me"
Why did the hiker obey the Ranger? Because the Ranger had just saved him, by pulling him out of the mud!
Did the hiker have to obey the Ranger in order to make it to the safety of the Ranger station? Yes.
Does that mean that the hiker earned his own salvation? No, had the Ranger not passed the entrance exam and taken the job, every hiker to ever enter the park would have been forever lost.

The saving GRACE of Jesus. Let's look at that closer.

GRACE has been around since Adam and Eve got kicked out of Eden, yet many Christians seem to use it like it is some new idea that only belongs to the New Testament. Name one person, "saved" before the Cross, who WASN'T saved by GRACE. You can't because anyone who has ever been "saved" has been saved through GRACE. GRACE isn't some new concept it is as old as mankind's need of it. Were the Israelites saved by works or Christ's saving GRACE? They were saved by Christ's saving GRACE. What Christians in this day and age need to understand is that the only thing that separates the Old Testament from the New is HOW we ask for Christ's saving GRACE. Before Calvary, it was done through the sacrificial system, and after Calvary it is done by simply asking for it. Be it kneeling in prayer or just sincerely thinking "God save me" as the mud is about to cover us up. That is the "law" that has been "done away with" the law that dictated HOW we must ask forgiveness for our sins. But rest assured, no person will ever be saved without asking forgiveness for their sins. So it gets back down to what is sin. Well my Bible tells me that it is the transgression of the law. that is the law that has never and will never be done away with, the 10 Commandments. People should really go back and study that story in Exodus 20 again. Those were the 10 things that were so important to God that He had to write it Himself, with His own finger, and in stone no less. Do you realize that it is the only part of the Bible actually written by God Himself? I mean it was so important that when Moses broke the first set, God mad him bring 2 stone slabs back up the mountain so God could be the one to write HIS Law. I am sure Moses had those 10 things memorized and very well could have chiseled them when he cut the new stones, but God said He would be the one to write those down. Then look at where the 10 were placed. INSIDE the Ark of the Covenant, and what went over the contents of the Ark? The Mercy Seat(a symbol of God's throne in Heaven), upon which sat the very presence of God Himself. So, to get to the 10 Commandments you would have to move God and His throne (both of which i think are eternal). All the other ceremonial laws (also called sabbaths, but known not to be THE Sabbath) and civil laws, were written on paper scrolls and placed on the side of the Ark. Seems to me that God had a very clear understanding of what laws were temporary and which ones are just as eternal as He is.


Verna, I hope I didn't hijack your thread too much here. Keep your eye on the Ranger daily, and you will make it to the promised land.
I used to believe like you then I found the saving Grace of Jesus. Sorry, I am not a legalist.
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