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Old 04-20-2010, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,022 posts, read 24,678,000 times
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I agree with this man. First time ever that I have come to appreciate NYT, a hotbed of the liberal folks

Op-Ed Columnist - A Church Mary Can Love - NYTimes.com

He's right. The Vatican needs to re-invent catholicism and take it back to the first century. They can take their theology and canon law and shove it up their ar$es

I've been slowly becoming an in-house rebel, lately Seriously pissed off with all the abuse scandals and the fact that they don't get it. They need to empower women like old times and they need to allow priests to marry.

Jesus knew no canon law. The apostles didn't. They just knew how to fish.

Some key points:
  • In my travels around the world, I encounter two Catholic Churches.
  • After a number of encounters like that, I’ve come to believe that the very coolest people in the world today may be nuns.
  • Jesus himself focused on the needy rather than dogma, and went out of his way to engage women and treat them with respect.
  • To me at least, this church — obsessed with dogma and rules and distracted from social justice — is a modern echo of the Pharisees whom Jesus criticized.
  • So when you read about the scandals, remember that the Vatican is not the same as the Catholic Church. Ordinary lepers, prostitutes and slum-dwellers may never see a cardinal, but they daily encounter a truly noble Catholic Church in the form of priests, nuns and lay workers toiling to make a difference.
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Old 04-20-2010, 04:17 PM
 
7,857 posts, read 6,662,302 times
Reputation: 1371
I do not agree with any New York Times Reporter ideas becaues he probably do not Pray for the Pope or the Vatican and his interpetation of the Gospel of Mary is the Mary Magdalene with is wrong, This book that is not in the Word of God was about the Mother of Jesus and not Magdalene ... This a an attemt to stir up the strife people have for the Roman Catholic leadership. and it is not the kind of Chruch that Mary would love but a church full of contention and strife and condemnation against the leadership . Where the Mother of Jesus would love a church free of these division, and place where the children pray and support to leadership and other believers. and place where the children do not condemn or Judge others in any way that gives rise the evil spirits of this world, a place there people are free to worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth, a place there....... Pray for the Pope and Holy Spirits Mary will bless you beyond Belief..... REVELATION FOR PRAYER -Daily--Through the Blood of Lord Jesus Christ Pray with Mary to abas any iniquity in the world and sit back and have a witness of that iniquity in the world disapearing.GLORY TO GOD......
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Old 04-21-2010, 06:10 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,959,041 times
Reputation: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
I agree with this man. First time ever that I have come to appreciate NYT, a hotbed of the liberal folks

Op-Ed Columnist - A Church Mary Can Love - NYTimes.com

He's right. The Vatican needs to re-invent catholicism and take it back to the first century. They can take their theology and canon law and shove it up their ar$es

I've been slowly becoming an in-house rebel, lately Seriously pissed off with all the abuse scandals and the fact that they don't get it. They need to empower women like old times and they need to allow priests to marry.

Jesus knew no canon law. The apostles didn't. They just knew how to fish.

Some key points:
  • In my travels around the world, I encounter two Catholic Churches.
  • After a number of encounters like that, I’ve come to believe that the very coolest people in the world today may be nuns.
  • Jesus himself focused on the needy rather than dogma, and went out of his way to engage women and treat them with respect.
  • To me at least, this church — obsessed with dogma and rules and distracted from social justice — is a modern echo of the Pharisees whom Jesus criticized.
  • So when you read about the scandals, remember that the Vatican is not the same as the Catholic Church. Ordinary lepers, prostitutes and slum-dwellers may never see a cardinal, but they daily encounter a truly noble Catholic Church in the form of priests, nuns and lay workers toiling to make a difference.


Great article!
I'm with you. I've gained much more from the maternal side of the Church than the paternal.

Afterall, wasn't it a woman who instructed the apostles that Christ had risen?

The theologians however, will have to revisit the paternal contraints on the preisthood.
I for one, would be more than happy to be presented Christ by a woman.
(It wouldn't be the first time )
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Old 04-21-2010, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,368 posts, read 4,091,050 times
Reputation: 2652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Great article!
I'm with you. I've gained much more from the maternal side of the Church than the paternal.

Afterall, wasn't it a woman who instructed the apostles that Christ had risen?

The theologians however, will have to revisit the paternal contraints on the preisthood.
I for one, would be more than happy to be presented Christ by a woman.
(It wouldn't be the first time )
By the 1950s, Roman Catholic theological and biblical studies had begun to move away from the neo-scholasticism and biblical literalism that the reaction to the Modernist heresy had enforced from after the First Vatican Council well into the 20th century. This liberalism sprang from theologians such as Yves Congar, Karl Rahner, and John Courtney Murray who looked to integrate modern human experience with Christian dogma, as well as others such as Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) and Henri de Lubac who looked to what they saw as a more accurate understanding of scripture and the early Church Fathers as a source of renewal.
For those that are unaware Ratzinger used to be a progressive theologian, if you read some of his earlier writings you would not believe the same person wrote them.


Ever since the reign of Paul VI Rome has been reforming the reform to undo the changes Vatican II had on the Church,the Church has been on a steady march back to a more repressive time.
The very powerful and conservative Roman Curia have battled Church reform ever since John XXIII made the annoucement that he was calling for a council.
What I think what few people realise is that the majority of the hierarchy at the time of Vatican II were liberal unlike today where the past two popes have stacked the deck with very conservative reactionary bishops and cardinals.
Theologians are not allowed to deviate from current Church thinking that does not support this backwards thinking, which defeats the purpose of their job description.


Change is needed in the Church, no one seen that more clearly than John XXIII

On his deathbed Pope John XXIII said (24 May 1963):
Today more than ever ... we are called to serve man as such, and not merely Catholics; to defend above all and everywhere the rights of the human person, and not merely those of the Catholic Church. Today’s world, the needs made plain in the last fifty years and a deeper understanding of doctrine have brought us to a new situation ... It is not that the Gospel has changed, it is that we have begun to understand it better. Those who have lived as long as I have ...were enabled to compare different cultures and traditions, and know that the moment has come to discern the signs of the times, to seize the opportunity and to look far ahead.

Pope John also said that Catholics were not meant to be museum keepers, but rather gardeners whose responsibility it was to prepare a beautiful harvest for a glorious future.

On the night of October 11, 1962, the opening of the Second Vatican Council, Papa Giovanni appeared at his window in answer to the chanting and singing below from a crowd estimated at half a million people assembled in St. Peter’s square. Many were young people who came in procession with candles and singing. His impromptu window speech that night is now part of Rome’s legends. In a high pitched voice:
“Carissimi giovani, carissimi giovani, Dear children, I hear your voice.” In the simplest language, he told them about his hopes for the Council. He pointed out that the moon, up there, was observing the spectacle. “My voice is an isolated one,” he said, “but it echoes the voice of the whole world. Here, in effect, the whole world is represented.” He concluded: “Tornando a casa … As you return to your homes, give your little children a kiss — tell them it is from Pope John.”
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Old 04-21-2010, 02:56 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,414,155 times
Reputation: 5146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Great article!
I'm with you. I've gained much more from the maternal side of the Church than the paternal.

Afterall, wasn't it a woman who instructed the apostles that Christ had risen?

The theologians however, will have to revisit the paternal contraints on the preisthood.
I for one, would be more than happy to be presented Christ by a woman.
(It wouldn't be the first time )
Here's a list of women who stand out in scripture:

Eve who was the mother of all living. Genesis 3:20

Deborah, the FIRST PROPHET and judge in Israel (of the tribe of Ephraim). Judges 4:4

The Virgin Mary who was chosen to be the mother of our Saviour and Redeemer. Matthew 1:21

The woman of Samaria...whom Jesus gave the water of life to. John 4:10

Mary Magdalene...THE FIRST whom "The Christ" appeared and talked to right after the resurrection and delivered the GOOD NEWS to the apostles. John 20:14-15

And many more...
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,368 posts, read 4,091,050 times
Reputation: 2652
Close to a dozen women were instrumental in spreading the message of the Jesus movement, according to Paul’s letters. They were:
• Pheobe: she was the head of the house-church near the port city of Cenchreae (near Corinth), and Paul considered her a co-worker in the Lord. As one of Paul’s patrons, she supported his ministry out of her own resources, and later, was selected by Paul to deliver his complex and most important letter: Romans (16:1-2). Paul called her diakonos. i.e., one who serves. There were perhaps a half-dozen house-churches in Rome at the time, and she must have known Greek to be able to read and to explain Paul’s letter which was being sent through her. This was a major assignment given only to a special disciple and head of a house-church. Some maintain that Origen and St. John Chrysostom held that Phoebe had been officially ordained.4/
• Prisca: Aquila and his wife, Prisca, lived in Rome and supported a group of Christians that met in their home (Rom 16:3). Prisca and Aquila were instrumental in establishing a house-church in Corinth and in Ephesus (1 Cor 16:19).
• Mary: she worked diligently to spread the Gospel to the Romans and they were eager to know about Jesus.
• Persis was a co-worker for the Gospel (Rom 16:6) together with Tryphaena and Tyrphosa.
• Julia: she was the mother of Rufus and the sister of Nereus. Paul named her as one of the leaders in the Christian community of Rome.
• Junia was a very talented woman and together with Andronicus are “prominent among the apostles (Rom 16:17). Junia was one of the first to preach the Gospel in Rome. (Note that Paul applied the term “apostle” to a woman.5/ Here we see the term “apostle” applied in a broader sense than the traditional meaning, i.e., one of the twelve chosen by Christ. Paul is also an apostle and so are many others who have seen the risen Lord, preached the Gospel, and have established new churches.)
• Lydia: she was a woman of considerable means (Acts 16:11) whom Paul met in Philippi, and he later converted her to Christianity. Lydia and her whole household were eventually baptized, and Paul says he was invited to her home. Later on, she became the head of a church that met in her house.
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,368 posts, read 4,091,050 times
Reputation: 2652
Jesus called both women and men to service in his Church. The earliest Christian communities followed the practice of Jesus. In the first century women exercised the ministries of disciple, apostle, prophet, deacon, proclaimer of the gospel and leader of worship. Despite the fact that women were not equal and were generally subordinate to men in contemporary Jewish, Hellenistic and Roman society, both Jesus and the early Church allowed women to hold and exercise ministerial office.
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,368 posts, read 4,091,050 times
Reputation: 2652
Both priesthood and ordination are post-biblical concepts. Ministry in the New Testament is described in terms of discipleship and service. The disciple is a person who is bound in close, loving, and learning relationship to Jesus. The disciple is called to be like his or her master, to be a servant. The service of the Christian disciple may be understood as priestly through the model of the priesthood of the suffering servant. The priesthood of gratuitous self-offering in atoning love is authentic Christian ministry. The levitical model of priesthood of power and status cannot be authentic Christian ministry.
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Northern Va. from N.J.
4,368 posts, read 4,091,050 times
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The early Church experimented with other models of ministry which it found in the Old Testament tradition of the ministry of word. There were Christian teachers and disciples, apostles, prophets and elders. There is evidence in the New Testament of the participation of women in all of these offices, with the sole exception of that of elder which was rooted in patriarchal tradition. The office of elder, however, soon ceased to exist in the Church as it was merged with other offices.
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,379,961 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by ted08721 View Post
Close to a dozen women were instrumental in spreading the message of the Jesus movement, according to Paul’s letters. They were:
• Pheobe: she was the head of the house-church near the port city of Cenchreae (near Corinth), and Paul considered her a co-worker in the Lord. As one of Paul’s patrons, she supported his ministry out of her own resources, and later, was selected by Paul to deliver his complex and most important letter: Romans (16:1-2). Paul called her diakonos. i.e., one who serves. There were perhaps a half-dozen house-churches in Rome at the time, and she must have known Greek to be able to read and to explain Paul’s letter which was being sent through her. This was a major assignment given only to a special disciple and head of a house-church. Some maintain that Origen and St. John Chrysostom held that Phoebe had been officially ordained.4/
• Prisca: Aquila and his wife, Prisca, lived in Rome and supported a group of Christians that met in their home (Rom 16:3). Prisca and Aquila were instrumental in establishing a house-church in Corinth and in Ephesus (1 Cor 16:19).
• Mary: she worked diligently to spread the Gospel to the Romans and they were eager to know about Jesus.
• Persis was a co-worker for the Gospel (Rom 16:6) together with Tryphaena and Tyrphosa.
• Julia: she was the mother of Rufus and the sister of Nereus. Paul named her as one of the leaders in the Christian community of Rome.
• Junia was a very talented woman and together with Andronicus are “prominent among the apostles (Rom 16:17). Junia was one of the first to preach the Gospel in Rome. (Note that Paul applied the term “apostle” to a woman.5/ Here we see the term “apostle” applied in a broader sense than the traditional meaning, i.e., one of the twelve chosen by Christ. Paul is also an apostle and so are many others who have seen the risen Lord, preached the Gospel, and have established new churches.)
• Lydia: she was a woman of considerable means (Acts 16:11) whom Paul met in Philippi, and he later converted her to Christianity. Lydia and her whole household were eventually baptized, and Paul says he was invited to her home. Later on, she became the head of a church that met in her house.
You don't hear about those women a whole lot in Protestant churches.

I guess we are told I Timothy 2:14: To learn from our husbands at home if we have a questions, because it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result.
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