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Old 04-23-2010, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The way I understand it:

Faith - belief that is not based on proof

Belief - confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof

So it seems that they are very similar, in fact..

I asked because I am wondering how much of each you need to qualify as a believer, in your opinion.
Sounds good to me! They are somewhat interchageable, of course depneding on context But, we have to define these things according to the scripture when it is dealing with the scripture, and always see what it says for the truth in our faith.
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You have not comprehended what has been said on this thread and you cling to somethig you think you can disagree about and use against me. You people keep asking "how can loving God do this and that". Well, our loving God has done many things, and some are mentioned on this very thread, the flood for example, and what has happened to Israel on many occations. And he WILL punish unbelievers.

Yes, it is very tiresome having to explain the same things to you guys over and over. Even now that I have explained it for the hundedth time, someone will ask the same questions again and again.

You are defining the word "bicker", "repetition" and the phrase "beating the dead horse".
Your entire sense of logic and reason are so much different than mine.

When you write about how unbelievers who stubbornly reject Christ will be pay the price and perish, and then tell us to read about what happened to Israel in the bible, it seems to me you are saying Israel and what happened to them is an example of what happens to unbelievers who stubbornly reject Christ. After the people of Israel stubbornly rejected Christ they apparently were destroyed, at least as a nation. Many were killed in the fall of the temple in 70 AD, their bodies thrown in the unquenchable fires of Gehenna, and all those that survived where enslaved and dispersed throughout the nations.

It sounded to me like you were saying this destruction of Israel and its people was an example of what will happen to people who stubbornly reject Christ. Surely you do realize the implications of what you said. At least how i might naturally infer that was what you meant to say ...

If you did not mean to say the destruction of Israel in 70 AD was an example of what happens to unbelievers who stubbornly reject Christ, i cannot think of the reason why you would tell us, "Read the Bible to see what happened to Israel when they rejected Him", after writing about how unbelievers who stubbornly reject Christ "Will pay the price and perish".

I believe that in fact Israel is a good example of what will happen to people who stubbornly reject him ... They will be destroyed, but not completely ... They will be destroyed and eventually healed and renewed and reconciled to God when all is said and done, just like Israel. Every Knee shall bow and tongue joyously confess that Christ is lord to the Glory of the Father. All things in heaven and in earth will be made one together in him. He makes all things new through Christ ... Its just a matter of time, and his perfect will be done on earth even as it is now in heaven.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 04-23-2010 at 06:21 PM..
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Apparently what you said was unclear because I feel the same way.. you seem to want to connect what happened to Israel for their unbelief to what happens to individuals for their unbelief. Unfortunately...

Romans 11:30-31 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

It was Israel's disobedience that caused the mercy from God.. therefore it is a benefit to individuals that Israel was disobedient.

Now if you continue to say we are twisting your words then it is evident that you are backtracking and have closed your mind to the issue altogether. Three people have now understood your statement and yet you say we are misunderstanding it. If this was me, I would apologize and restate my point more clearly... you seem to think it is our fault that you are not being clear.

HINT: Sodom and Gomorrah is a better analogy of what would happen to an unbeliever... See 2 Peter 2.
You wrote ...

Quote:
HINT: Sodom and Gomorrah is a better analogy of what would happen to an unbeliever... See 2 Peter 2.
And I know what you mean to say ... Though the scriptures speak about how the things done in Israel were so much worse than the things that had been done in Sodom and Gomorrah.
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Ironmaw, Typology.....it is what God teaches. If one rejects Christ, he too will suffer the fate typologically portrayed in the text.
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:53 PM
 
Location: RV Park
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I believe that in fact Israel is a good example of what will happen to people who stubbornly reject him ... They will be destroyed, but not completely ... They will be destroyed and eventually healed and renewed and reconciled to God when all is said and done, just like Israel. Every Knee shall bow and tongue joyously confess that Christ is lord to the Glory of the Father. All things in heaven and in earth will be made one together in him. He makes all things new through Christ ... Its just a matter of time, and his perfect will be done on earth even as it is now in heaven.
Agreed - I believe there is indeed fire for the flesh (carnal nature), but what God has instilled in every man (John 1:9) will endure. His nature is growing and is more evident in some in this age, but every knee...
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:55 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,720,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Now if you continue to say we are twisting your words then it is evident that you are backtracking and have closed your mind to the issue altogether. Three people have now understood your statement and yet you say we are misunderstanding it.
I make four!
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sounds good to me! They are somewhat interchageable, of course depneding on context But, we have to define these things according to the scripture when it is dealing with the scripture, and always see what it says for the truth in our faith.
We'll ... I know you have said that you are not an "ET" or a "UR" or an "Anni" ... Which I infer to mean that you don't have an opinion one way or another or at least you are not sure about what the truth concerning these things is as far as Gods judgment is concerned. However, i see you defend the concept of eternal damnation, whatever that may entail, against "UR".

So my question is, do you believe in ET, or at least eternal damnation, in that you believe that is what the bible teaches?

And if so, Do you also have faith that ET, or at least eternal damnation, is true even as you have faith that what the bible teaches is true?

That would explain why you do not defend the Idea of "UR" as a potentially correct doctrine among the other two potential candidates concerning the true doctrine of the judgment of God.

Nevertheless, i am making the point that faith and belief are really flip sides of the same coin, practically theologically synonymous. If you believe something is true then you must have faith that it is true also. Belief is the form of your faith. Many have faith, but not all have faith in the right form, their belief is not in Christ, but in whatever else they have come to believe is the true religion or philosophy or science ... etc.

Just because you have faith in something does not mean that it is necessarily true. That is the same as saying just because you don't believe something doesn't mean that it is not true.

It is important to note that true faith is built on Hope. That is to say, many people believe what they want to believe one way or another.

For example, I hope "UR" is true, therefore I also have faith that it is true, in that I also see it in the scriptures as well among other things. So i believe in "UR" as well ... Even though i will admit that i may be wrong. Because i know that i have been wrong about many things in the past.

I wonder if those who believe in "ET, or even "ANNI", truly hope that "ET" or "ANNI" is true ... And therefore truly have faith that it is true and that is why they believe it, in that they also see it in the scriptures as well among other things.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 04-23-2010 at 06:27 PM..
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Ironmaw, Typology.....it is what God teaches. If one rejects Christ, he too will suffer the fate typologically portrayed in the text.
Exactly, and "ALL Israel" shall be saved.

Though i do realize your eschatological model intertwines with your theological hermeneutic, and that you believe in a purely spiritualized meaning of that fact, that is to say ... "ALL Israel" shall be saved. However, you and I both know that we agree to disagree almost entirely in that regard.
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
We'll ... I know you have said that you are not an "ET" or a "UR" or an "Anni" ... Which I infer you to mean you don't have an opinion one way or another or at least you are not sure about what the truth concerning these things are as far as Gods judgment is concerned. However, i see you defend the concept of eternal damnation, whatever that may entail, against "UR".
I defend the concept of the Bible, and that is not UR, in any way shape or form

Quote:
So my question is, do you believe in ET, or at least eternal damnation, in that you believe that is what the bible teaches?
I believe in Second Death, cuz that is what the Bible teaches!

Quote:
And if so, Do you also have faith that ET, or at least eternal damnation, is true even as you have faith that what the bible teaches is true?
Faith in ET....hmmmmm...interesting question...can you elborate?

Quote:
That would explain why you do not defend the Idea of "UR" as a potentially correct doctrine among other the other two potential candidates concerning the true doctrine of the judgment of God.
Potentially correct doctrine? Based on what scripture....? UR still cannot prove that correction is involved in Post Mortem...so until then....I am waiting to read it too, but from what I have seen, it is laden throughout many gnostic writings, as well as lots of secular literaries, hence the error.

Quote:
Nevertheless, i am making the point that faith and belief are really flip side of the same coin, practically theologically synonymous. If you believe something is true then you must have faith that it is true also. Belief is the form of your faith. Many have faith, but not all have faith in the write form, their belief is not in Christ, but in whatever else they have come to believe is the true religion or philosophy or science ... etc.
Faith in one thing is very different than faith in Christ and His word. We must define our thoughts with the scriptrue, and if they don't match, guess what....we are wrong.

Quote:
Just because you have faith in something does not mean that it is necessarily true. That is the same as saying just because you don't believe something doesn't mean that it is not true.
ahhh...I knew secular philosophy would enter into this.
Is Christ true and real?
I have faith in Him, who is true and real.

Quote:
I wonder if those who believe in "ET, or even "ANNI", truly hope that "ET" or "ANNI" is true ... And therefore truly have faith that it is true and that is why they believe it, in in that they also see it in the scriptures as well among other things.
You sound like Aesop.
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:27 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,720,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I wonder if those who believe in "ET, or even "ANNI", truly hope that "ET" or "ANNI" is true ... And therefore truly have faith that it is true and that is why they believe it, in in that they also see it in the scriptures as well among other things.
IMO, a lot of people just accept what they've been taught about ET, like me and others on this forum who had never even heard of Christian Universalism until the Holy Spirit began showing us.

IMO, those who have heard of UR and reject it without praying about it or opening their heart to the possibility, hope that their brand of religion/denomination is right (not necessarily that they hope ET is true), just because it would cause too much chaos in their lives, and open up too big a can of worms to have to deal with it.

When I talked to my best friend about this a few years ago, she got all excited and said, "That would explain why some believe in predestination - because we are all predestined!" She also named a few other apparent contradictions that now made sense. However, when I asked her if she had given it any more thought a few weeks later, she just said, "I can't. I just can't think about that right now." I knew what she meant because she is super involved in her church, mission work, etc., and it would just be too hard for her to question her beliefs right now. I think based on her reaction, though, that she probably "saw the light," but I'm not pushing it because it's really between her and the Lord how she processes the information.
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