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Old 04-23-2010, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,648,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
If there is sin, then there is a curse, and there are tears, and pain and suffering ... Etc.

Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:3
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:


Christ will eventuall completely destroy all the works of the devil, and that means sin ...
I disagree here in that I think the action of sin is never gone but the curse of or sting of sin is destroyed... IMO
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,208,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
. When the last one goes through the gates and comes to Christ, then there will be no more sin.
Scripture?

The New Jerusalem is the city that HAS NO MORE TEARS or SORROW.
But sin abounds outside of the city that HAS NO MORE TEARS OR SORROW.

Quote:
Regardless, I don't see what your point is about there still being sinners - like I said they are outside the gates. With all due respect - so what?
The New Heavens and Earth IS the Order and the New Jerusalem IS the reconciliation.
It is the FINAL and Unending AGE. OT and NT confirm this.
But in this governmental order, there is still sin.
What happens/ed to those under the Law, apart from those outside of the law (Sea) were cast into the LOF NOT found in the book of Life - Second Death
Next, under the New Heavens and Earth, there is NO MORE SEA, No distinction of Jew or Gentile, and there is a universal LAW, and if you walk by His light (THE LAW IN THE HEART), you can enter the Gates, if not, COVENANTAL DEATH - Second death.
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,208,473 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
If there is sin, then there is a curse, and there are tears, and pain and suffering ... Etc.

Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:3
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:


Christ will eventuall completely destroy all the works of the devil, and that means sin ...
These things are INSIDE the City where outside there is SIN IN THE NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH!
The whole paradigm you folks present collapses on itself.

You cannot get past the fact that there is SIN in the New Heaven/Earth.
The only place that there is no more tears or sorrow is INSIDE THE CITY GATES!
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:53 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,826,185 times
Reputation: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Scripture?

The New Jerusalem is the city that HAS NO MORE TEARS or SORROW.
But sin abounds outside of the city that HAS NO MORE TEARS OR SORROW.



The New Heavens and Earth IS the Order and the New Jerusalem IS the reconciliation.
It is the FINAL and Unending AGE. OT and NT confirm this.
But in this governmental order, there is still sin.
What happens/ed to those under the Law, apart from those outside of the law (Sea) were cast into the LOF NOT found in the book of Life - Second Death
Next, under the New Heavens and Earth, there is NO MORE SEA, No distinction of Jew or Gentile, and there is a universal LAW, and if you walk by His light (THE LAW IN THE HEART), you can enter the Gates, if not, COVENANTAL DEATH - Second death.
This view has a giant flaw in that you are suggesting sin will exist forever.

Sciotamicks, sin does not exist forever. Jesus came to take away the sin of the world, and to destroy the works of the devil (the devil's works are sin - he sinned from the beginning - 1 John 3:8). Your view fails at this point, and I don't know why you would want to even defend or rationalize a view where sin has a place forever. It is plainly contradictory to Jesus' stated mission - to take away sin.
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:00 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,826,185 times
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Again, in the overall scheme of things, it is really irrelevant if those outside the gates are still sinning - they won't be sinning forever - because Jesus takes their sin away as well. Jesus defeats death and sin, the only way to do that is to take away all sin.

I don't know why you think Jesus won't do this sciotamicks. It is a very strange and bizarre "reasoning" you are using here... at least to me (IMHO).
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,208,473 times
Reputation: 401
Legoman...why is there sin in the New Heavens and Earth?
The final and unending Age, where you presume everyone is reconciled, Sin abounds outside the New Jerusalem, and the text strictly says....those who walk by "it's Light, shall come in and bring honor into IT....
I don't assume or think anything on this matter...the text is clear....in the New Heavens and New Earth there is a city, called the New Jerusalem, where there is no more Tears and Sorrow, where God is all in all with His people and servants, and IN THE NEW HEAVENS and NEW EARTH, there are sinners, who are outside this city, AND THEY WILL TAKE PART IN THE SECOND DEATH.

There is nothing bizarre about this. What is bizzare, is UR.

Still.....no one has given the forum scriptural support and exegesis of Post Mortem reconciliaiton for those outside of Christ, who die in their sins.

God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:

This is only for those in the NEW JERUSALEM, in the final unending age within the New Heavens and Earth, where sin abounds outside the city, IN THE NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH. The text contradicts everything UR is about....among others.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,208,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

Sciotamicks, sin does not exist forever. Jesus came to take away the sin of the world, and to destroy the works of the devil (the devil's works are sin - he sinned from the beginning - 1 John 3:8). Your view fails at this point, and I don't know why you would want to even defend or rationalize a view where sin has a place forever. It is plainly contradictory to Jesus' stated mission - to take away sin.
Verse 10 In this manifest are the children of God, and the children of the devil, every one who is not doing righteousness, is not of God

Please try to refrain from taking verse out of context. It doesn't help you.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:40 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,826,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Verse 10 In this manifest are the children of God, and the children of the devil, every one who is not doing righteousness, is not of God

Please try to refrain from taking verse out of context. It doesn't help you.
Honestly its like we are talking a different language or something.

How is what you posted above even relevant? Jesus still came to take away the sin of the world and to destroy the works of the devil. Verse 10 doesn't change that.

BTW I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that faith is a gift from God. You mocked me for stating faith is given from God, I showed you plain scripture that shows it to be so, and then silence from you on the matter. Very telling.

Regarding sin outside the gates. Again I say "so what". Elsewhere throughout the bible it says all will be reconciled, all will be restored, God will have all men to be saved, etc. Oh yeah you don't believe those verses
Its late and I fear this is going nowhere. Good night.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:05 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,208,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Jesus still came to take away the sin of the world and to destroy the works of the devil. Verse 10 doesn't change that.
It does...legoman.."In this the children of God are manifest" is where the works of the devil is destroyed. He can no longer "accuse" God's people.
The sins of the world are paid for, but one must walk in righteousness to make this matter manifest, you must be a child of God. This is what 1 John 3 is about...not this concept of automatic universal salvation for all without lifting a finger of faith.

Quote:
BTW I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that faith is a gift from God. You mocked me for stating faith is given from God, I showed you plain scripture that shows it to be so, and then silence from you on the matter.
I addressed it. Hebrews 1 - refer to it. God seeks faith in man. God wants our faith in Him. Faith is a sate of being from man, of God's intervention in man.

Quote:
Regarding sin outside the gates. Again I say "so what". Elsewhere throughout the bible it says all will be reconciled, all will be restored, God will have all men to be saved, etc
If the scriptures that you claim to be UR" are usurped by only one other verse in the scripture, your interpretation is in error.
It MUST be in harmony completely.
Or else it is a false idea.
Therefore, the UR verses that people claim, are not UR verses after all.
The scripture is without error, and can never be wrong.
The second death is a final, covenantal death, which is the Lake of Fire, where Satan and his minions are, a destination for those living outside God's kingdom, in the New Heavens and New Earth.
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Old 04-24-2010, 05:49 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,826,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It does...legoman.."In this the children of God are manifest" is where the works of the devil is destroyed. He can no longer "accuse" God's people.
The sins of the world are paid for, but one must walk in righteousness to make this matter manifest, you must be a child of God. This is what 1 John 3 is about...not this concept of automatic universal salvation for all without lifting a finger of faith.
Wow. Your interpretation here is skewed by your pseudo-calvinism. Jesus doesn't only destroy the works in the children of God. A child of God is what one becomes when God has destroyed the works of the devil in you. The "children of God" is not ultimately a fixed group nor is the "children of the devil". When one is reborn, they become a child of God, and the devil's works are destroyed for that person. Your view has Jesus not finishing the job. And I never said this passage is anything to do with "automatic" universal salvation.

Quote:
I addressed it. Hebrews 1 - refer to it. God seeks faith in man. God wants our faith in Him. Faith is a sate of being from man, of God's intervention in man.
Um, no you did not address it. Hebrews 11 (I think that's what you meant) doesn't address where faith comes from.

Perhaps you didn't read Eph 2:8 or Rom 12:3 which make it clear that faith comes from God. Perhaps you didn't read Phil 1:29 to see that belief comes from God. Perhaps you didn't understand John 6:44 and 6:65 and don't realize it is God who drags us to Christ. Or perhaps you don't believe those verses either. All of scripture must be taken into account.

Quote:
If the scriptures that you claim to be UR" are usurped by only one other verse in the scripture, your interpretation is in error.
It MUST be in harmony completely.
Or else it is a false idea.
Therefore, the UR verses that people claim, are not UR verses after all.
The scripture is without error, and can never be wrong.
The second death is a final, covenantal death, which is the Lake of Fire, where Satan and his minions are, a destination for those living outside God's kingdom, in the New Heavens and New Earth.
Yes the bible must be in harmony. I can say the same thing: if the scriptures that you claim to be ET are usurped by only one verse in scripture, your interpretation is in error. Therefore ET verses are not ET verses after all. See how easy that is?

Rev 22 is not the end sciota, because Christ is still reigning at this point. Because of 1 Cor 15:22-28 we know Christ's reign ends and all is subjected to God and then God is truly all in ALL. ALL! Do you understand? Not just all "elect". But EVERYTHING. All will be put in unity through Christ and put under God.

To resolve this we must harmonize all scripture. You can't just ignore certain things - for example you can't just ignore the FACT that God gives us faith. For example you can't just ignore the fact that Jesus came to save the world, to save all people, to take away all sin.

Another way to resolve it is to look at God's character.

So one view (UR) has God transforming all people through judgment and bringing them into His love. This view matches God's character.

The other view (ET) - your view - has God allowing sin to perpetuate forever. This view is what Satan would love to see.
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