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Old 04-24-2010, 05:59 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,824,415 times
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What's amazing to me is how people want to believe in eternal torment.

Sciotamicks, do you like the idea of ET? You defend it with great gusto.


Lets try to look at this objectively. Obviously people draw conclusions from the bible. Some see UR plain as day. Others see ET plain as day. Now obviously certain verses can be used to support either case. But on deeper investigation only one view can be right.

Now IMHO the verses that plainly support UR are about 90% while ET is maybe 10%, and then on close examination of the ET verses they are actually very weak and can only mean ET due to mistranslation or misinterpretation.

So given the above, why do people try to cling to ET? Why not investigate the UR side and see if it holds weight? Its like ET gives them some power or some reason to live or something.

To support ET, you have to believe silly views that suggest sin will have its own place to exist forever, when this obviously contradicts the stated mission of Jesus. So for example, sciotamicks would rather believe that sin lives on forever than believe that Jesus actually takes away all sin of the world. Why?


Its mind-boggling. People want to believe in eternal torment. They seem to like the idea. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence (the 90% plain UR verses), they prefer to cling to the 10% that could be misinterpreted as ET.

When you want to believe in eternal torment, you will see it in every verse you read, even when its not there.
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:07 AM
 
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When I believed in eternal torment for 30 years, I believed it because I thought it was the truth. Sometimes I wanted to believe in it, but most of the time I didn't want to believe in it. But I didn't know there was any other possibility.

When I learned of UR, it blew me away. I didn't think it could be true because no one had told me about it in 30 years. But I studied it and I quickly found ET to be wanting; basically ET is based on a few mistranslated and misinterpreted verses. UR is the superior view in that it takes into account God's love, God's character, and can align with 100% of all verses. ET can only align with all verses by either changing them or outright ignoring them.


People, ask yourself why you prefer to believe in eternal torment?
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:13 AM
 
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Salvation is a complete work of God

Who here really believes this? Its what the bible says.

Yet most believers in ET (except maybe hyper-calvinists) don't truly believe salvation is a complete work of God.

People will suggest that you have to choose to believe of your own free will, or you have to have your own faith. But these ideas are not found in scripture. Sure people choose to believe, but only after God has revealed Himself to them.

Scripture is clear faith comes from God, belief is granted from God, God leads people to repent, and God is the one who is actually dragging people to Christ.

Yet people like this idea that they do their own "tiny" part to be saved. It is simply pride - that way it is your fault if you end up in "hell", and that way it is to your credit if you make it to heaven.

Salvation is a complete work of God - SO NONE CAN BOAST
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Old 04-24-2010, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,732 posts, read 12,118,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Now if you continue to say we are twisting your words then it is evident that you are backtracking and have closed your mind to the issue altogether. Three people have now understood your statement and yet you say we are misunderstanding it. If this was me, I would apologize and restate my point more clearly... you seem to think it is our fault that you are not being clear.
Unbelievable......that's all I can say....unbelievable.
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Old 04-24-2010, 08:47 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,007,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The sins of the world are paid for, but
Christian Universalists don't need the "but" when speaking of our faith in Jesus.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:02 AM
 
Location: In the♥of Jesus !
9,569 posts, read 5,168,710 times
Reputation: 17610
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Salvation is a complete work of God

Who here really believes this? Its what the bible says
.
I don't believe I have ever read where any one has denied that, "Salvation is a complete work of God."

And that people just wake up one day and it pops into their minds, I have a good idea, I think I will believe there is a God today and oh, yeah, I don't think I'll sin anymore and start reading my bible...... and all by themselves decided and grant to themselves, they're saved.....

Come on legoman..... ???

Quote:
Yet most believers in ET (except maybe hyper-calvinists) don't truly believe salvation is a complete work of God.
Your pondering about others thoughts and what they believe is so wrong..... this is what you believe and projecting upon other's.
I have never read of anyone stating that they "don't truly believe salvation is a complete work of God".
This once again is what you believe and projecting of what others think, believe.

Legoman, thinking you can read the hearts of others in what they believe, you can not do that.... sorry, that is only God's privilege.....

Quote:
People will suggest that you have to choose to believe of your own free will, or you have to have your own faith. But these ideas are not found in scripture. Sure people choose to believe, but only after God has revealed Himself to them.
Yes, God's grace reveals to the sinner their sin, through the Holy Spirit, leading and revealing to them why Christ died on the cross!! Then the Father's grace gives that individual the faith the choice to agree with God about their sin (unbelief) and make that choice to repent, turn away from sin and in exchange give to them the faith to believe in His beautiful gift of salvation, eternal life with Him, through Jesus Christ, forever and ever !!!

Quote:
Scripture is clear faith comes from God, belief is granted from God, God leads people to repent, and God is the one who is actually dragging people to Christ.
Yes, this is true and once again I have never read anyone denying it is not the work of God who draws men/women by His Holy Spirit, to Himself and revealing to them their sin, (unbelief) and that the remedy to this destruction of the life of sin is through the cross of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, the ultimate sacrifice, whom shed His blood for the world and its sin. His grace granting them the choice to exchange for their life of sin, a life of forgiveness through Jesus Christ, the faith to freely choose to live a life in His righteousness for those who do agree with the Father the darkness of the life of sin in their hearts.

What a wonderful revelation of His grace to be able to repent of sin. Thank you, Father for your grace given through Your faith to be able to choose and to turn from the darkness, to the light of Jesus Christ, that You, Father reveal to the heart!!! Hallelujah !!!!

Quote:
Yet people like this idea that they do their own "tiny" part to be saved. It is simply pride - that way it is your fault if you end up in "hell", and that way it is to your credit if you make it to heaven.Salvation is a complete work of God - SO NONE CAN BOAST
I have never read where anyone claims they save themselves.....
Boy, one really has such an imagination of what others are thinking and doing !!
Once again this is what you believe, legoman, and it sounds like you are trying really hard to convince yourself of it by projecting your thoughts upon others.....
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The sins of the world are paid for, but one must walk in righteousness to make this matter manifest, ...
Sciotamicks doesn't seem to believe salvation is a complete work of God.

If what sciotamicks was saying were true, we could all boast about being saved.

All will/are made righteous through Christ - through God's judgments, therefore all will be saved.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:06 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,824,415 times
Reputation: 647
[quote=Latte'Chic;13881342]
Quote:
.
I don't believe I have ever read where any one has denied that, "Salvation is a complete work of God."

And that people just wake up one day and it pops into their minds, I have a good idea, I think I will believe there is a God today and oh, yeah, I don't think I'll sin anymore and start reading my bible...... and all by themselves decided and grant to themselves, they're saved.....

Come on legoman..... ???



Your pondering about others thoughts and what they believe is so wrong..... this is what you believe and projecting upon other's.
I have never read of anyone stating that they "don't truly believe salvation is a complete work of God".
This once again is what you believe and projecting of what others think, believe.

Legoman, thinking you can read the hearts of others in what they believe, you can not do that.... sorry, that is only God's privilege.....



Yes, God's grace reveals to the sinner their sin, through the Holy Spirit, leading and revealing to them why Christ died on the cross!! Then the Father's grace gives that individual the faith the choice to agree with God about their sin (unbelief) and make that choice to repent, turn away from sin and in exchange give to them the faith to believe in His beautiful gift of salvation, eternal life with Him, through Jesus Christ, forever and ever !!!



Yes, this is true and once again I have never read anyone denying it is not the work of God who draws men/women by His Holy Spirit, to Himself and revealing to them their sin, (unbelief) and that the remedy to this destruction of the life of sin is through the cross of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, the ultimate sacrifice, whom shed His blood for the world and its sin. His grace granting them the choice to exchange for their life of sin, a life of forgiveness through Jesus Christ, the faith to freely choose to live a life in His righteousness for those who do agree with the Father the darkness of the life of sin in their hearts.

What a wonderful revelation of His grace to be able to repent of sin. Thank you, Father for your grace given through Your faith to be able to choose and to turn from the darkness, to the light of Jesus Christ, that You, Father reveal to the heart!!! Hallelujah !!!!



I have never read where anyone claims they save themselves.....
Boy, one really has such an imagination of what others are thinking and doing !!
Once again this is what you believe, legoman, and it sounds like you are trying really hard to convince yourself of it by projecting your thoughts upon others.....
Sorry Latte'chic, it may be a generalization but I see it time and time again on this forum.

People claim salvation is a complete work of God, but then also claim we have to do something of ourself to be saved.

Sorry, if we have to do something of ourselves to be saved, then it is not a complete work of God. If we have to do something of ourselves to be saved, then we can boast about it! It is so subtle, but you even do it yourself above. You claim salvation is a complete work of God, in that He only gives us a choice to be saved. So then its not really a complete work of God is it? Because according to you the real determining factor of who gets saved is ourselves, not God.

Its called doublespeak, or talking out of both sides of your mouth.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:10 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,824,415 times
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Now don't confuse this with what God works in us to do. Certainly we will do things (like believe and have faith and be made righteous) and will do good works when we are saved. But this is a result of God working in us and God ultimately saving us.

Not the other way round.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:32 AM
 
Location: In the♥of Jesus !
9,569 posts, read 5,168,710 times
Reputation: 17610
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Sorry Latte'chic, it may be a generalization but I see it time and time again on this forum.

People claim salvation is a complete work of God, but then also claim we have to do something of ourself to be saved.

Sorry, if we have to do something of ourselves to be saved, then it is not a complete work of God. If we have to do something of ourselves to be saved, then we can boast about it! It is so subtle, but you even do it yourself above. You claim salvation is a complete work of God, in that He only gives us a choice to be saved. So then its not really a complete work of God is it? Because according to you the real determining factor of who gets saved is ourselves, not God.

Its called doublespeak, or talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Now, legoman, didn't you claim to have once believe in ET? And then you claim God showed you universalism to be the truth, right?
Now, who made that choice to evaluate the difference between ET-Universalism, to make that choice to turn from ET to universalism ? You, did !!! God didn't make you do it, your own thoughts, comparing the two and then you chose to believe in universalism, rather then ET, right?

God's grace grants every human being the choice to choose in what they want or will believe.....

So, who now is doublespeaking, or talking out of both sides of the mouth ?
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