U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 04-24-2010, 11:03 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,423,420 times
Reputation: 683

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Now, legoman, didn't you claim to have once believe in ET? And then you claim God showed you universalism to be the truth, right?
Now, who made that choice to evaluate the difference between ET-Universalism, to make that choice to turn from ET to universalism ? You, did !!! God didn't make you do it, your own thoughts, comparing the two and then you chose to believe in universalism, rather then ET, right?

God's grace grants every human being the choice to choose in what they want or will believe.....

So, who now is doublespeaking, or talking out of both sides of the mouth ?
Yes I made a choice. But only because God showed me the truth of it. That is what I am trying to say. It was not from my own self - which is what I said before.

People make choices every day. But none of the choices is without a cause or a reason. When I began to believe in UR, it was because events in my life unfolded in a way in which I was open to receiving the truth of UR. That was God showing it to me. God opened my eyes, and I saw that He wills and desires to save all people, and that He will do it.

I can't choose to believe in ET now, because God showed me the truth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-24-2010, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,300,647 times
Reputation: 420
You still made a choice.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2010, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,415,178 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You still made a choice.
The sad thing is that it is your choice to believe in ET...

If it comes down to choice why wasn't I given a choice to not believe in ET...it was taught to me as a child without regard to what I thought.

Did you choose to believe in ET?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2010, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,300,647 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Wow. Your interpretation here is skewed by your pseudo-calvinism.
Oh really...let's see why don't we?

Quote:
Jesus doesn't only destroy the works in the children of God.
Hmmmmm.......lets' see about this....

Quote:
A child of God is what one becomes when God has destroyed the works of the devil in you.
Now wait a minute...is it Jesus didn't ONLY destroy the work of the devil for the children of God...BUT...it takes becoming a child of God for the works of the devil to be destroyed in you....?

Legoman...you are contradicting yourself again...why is this so prevalant amongst the UR crowd....?

Quote:
The "children of God" is not ultimately a fixed group nor is the "children of the devil".
Ok...so they are just children...no titles...hmmm that's not what John says in 1 John 3:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

...and...

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

...and....

whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God..

shall I stop here? John clearly makes a dinstinction between these two TYPES of people. So we must conclude based on the overwhelming evidence in front of us that there are in fact TWO types.
These two groups are fixed here.

Quote:
When one is reborn, they become a child of God, and the devil's works are destroyed for that person.
Again...you contradicted yourself. There are two fixed groups here, one is reborn, they become a child of God, SEPARATE from NOT BEING REBORN. Fixed groups, two types.

Quote:
Your view has Jesus not finishing the job.
On the contrary, my Christ has fulfilled everything. I live in the New Jerusalem. I have eternal life. Your Christ has postponed justification for my sins already...your Christ HAS NOT brought in everlasting righteousness. Lest you forget Legoman, being a New Creation is a present reality right now. Paul thought so:

Eph 4:21-24 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Matthew Henry
By the new man is meant the new nature, the new creature, which is actuated by a new principle, even regenerating grace, enabling a man to lead a new life, that life of righteousness and holiness which Christianity requires. This new man is created, or produced out of confusion and emptiness, by God’s almighty power, whose workmanship it is, truly excellent and beautiful. After God, in imitation of him, and in conformity to that grand exemplar and pattern. The loss of God’s image upon the soul was both the sinfulness and misery of man’s fallen state; and that resemblance which it bears to God is the beauty, the glory, and the happiness, of the new creature. In righteousness towards men, including all the duties of the second table; and in holiness towards God, signifying a sincere obedience to the commands of the first table; true holiness in opposition to the outward and ceremonial holiness of the Jews. We are said to put on this new man when, in the use of all God’s appointed means, we are endeavouring after this divine nature, this new creature. This is the more general exhortation to purity and holiness of heart and life.

Quote:
And I never said this passage is anything to do with "automatic" universal salvation.
I inferred it because you support UR

Quote:
Um, no you did not address it. Hebrews 11 (I think that's what you meant) doesn't address where faith comes from.
Yes the scripture did. You just didn't understand.

Quote:
Perhaps you didn't read Eph 2:8 or Rom 12:3 which make it clear that faith comes from God. Perhaps you didn't read Phil 1:29 to see that belief comes from God. Perhaps you didn't understand John 6:44 and 6:65 and don't realize it is God who drags us to Christ. Or perhaps you don't believe those verses either. All of scripture must be taken into account.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (Grace) not of yourselves: [it (Grace) is] the gift of God:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

...Grace is the subject that is a gift from God. Faith is the result of this grace that is in mankind, and that FAITH is measured.

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

What is given to Paul and the Ephesian church that will make them BELIEVE?

Verse 25 And having this confidence....

Confidence of what?

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

What very thing?

ye all are partakers of my grace.

The hope of the resurrection.

Quote:
Yes the bible must be in harmony. I can say the same thing: if the scriptures that you claim to be ET are usurped by only one verse in scripture, your interpretation is in error. Therefore ET verses are not ET verses after all. See how easy that is?
That wasn't an exegesis. It is an assumption. Prove it. Your theory does not weigh up against the text, so therefore it is in error. Show me that the Lake of Fire where the Devil and his angels are is something other than what it just is, a lake of fire where the devil and his angels are.

Quote:
Rev 22 is not the end sciota, because Christ is still reigning at this point. Because of 1 Cor 15:22-28 we know Christ's reign ends and all is subjected to God and then God is truly all in ALL. ALL! Do you understand? Not just all "elect". But EVERYTHING. All will be put in unity through Christ and put under God.
I am not talking about when the end is, I am talking about the nature of the end. It doesn't matter if you believe He is still reigning or not. What matters is the nature of the text. Rev 22 says:

Verse 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they (God, the Lamb, and the servants in verse 1,2, 3 and 4) shall reign for ever and ever.

The New Heavens and Earth, all throughout scripture, is the FINAL AND UNENDING AGE. You say it isn't, and you are WRONG. The Bible disagrees with you in many, many places.

Quote:
To resolve this we must harmonize all scripture. You can't just ignore certain things - for example you can't just ignore the FACT that God gives us faith. For example you can't just ignore the fact that Jesus came to save the world, to save all people, to take away all sin.
No...I can't. But the scripture says you must believe in Him to have those sins removed from God's sight.

Quote:
Another way to resolve it is to look at God's character.

So one view (UR) has God transforming all people through judgment and bringing them into His love. This view matches God's character.

The other view (ET) - your view - has God allowing sin to perpetuate forever. This view is what Satan would love to see.
It isn't about God allowing, it is about God's rules and His inability to break them, because He never goes back on His word. You impose your own carnal, emotional and philosophical thoughts onto His charcter when His character NEVER changes....EVER. He is Just and loves those who love Him.

Psalm 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD [is] from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children

You must love Him, for Him to HAVE MERCY on YOU.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2010, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,300,647 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The sad thing is that it is your choice to believe in ET...

If it comes down to choice why wasn't I given a choice to not believe in ET...it was taught to me as a child without regard to what I thought.

Did you choose to believe in ET?
I don't deny Free Will. Why is it sad when the scriptures says it, and UR twists it and changes God character to what they feel like He should be?

Second death is second death. No more life, in the unending age of the New Heavens and Earth ....over end game...no life....for ages and ages, ever and ever. My choice is based on my studies of the unending age of the New Heavens and Earth. God brought took me on this path, and I made a descision based on faith from the evidence of the scripture God has provided me, and I prayed many times about it, and the conclusion is clear. There are verses that support UR, when taken out of context and re-translated, but when it comes to the wicked, the message is clear.

Death forever and No life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2010, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,415,178 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I don't deny Free Will. Why is it sad when the scriptures says it, and UR twists it and changes God character to what they feel like He should be?

Second death is second death. No more life, in the unending age of the New Heavens and Earth ....over end game...no life....for ages and ages, ever and ever. My choice is based on my studies of the unending age of the New Heavens and Earth. God brought took me on this path, and I made a descision based on faith from the evidence of the scripture God has provided me, and I prayed many times about it, and the conclusion is clear. There are verses that support UR, when taken out of context and re-translated, but when it comes to the wicked, the message is clear.

Death forever and No life.
Yes death means no life... and death is forever. Yet realistically you say that there IS life after death so then death is not forever and death doesn't mean no life....

If life continues after death (even just for some to burn forever) then there is life after death, even if you are consciously tormented forever it is still living in torment.

So for you to say that unbelievers will not see life and will suffer death... you are really saying that the first death is physical and so is the second...right? or are you saying the first death is spiritual and the second is physical?

I see two second deaths here....

I'll break it down:
1 death - Adam caused spiritual death.
2 death - physical/natural death.
3 death - after judgment/lake of fire.

So how many deaths are there and why does the bible only mention 2? Unless I missed something...

Oh and my point was that if you say UR is a choice then ET is a choice as well... in fact all belief is a choice. However, I didn't have a choice to believe ET.... It was handed down from my parents.... Now that I have a choice... UR is the only choice that fits the nature of the God I know.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2010, 12:44 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,725,795 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Show me that the Lake of Fire where the Devil and his angels are is something other than what it just is, a lake of fire where the devil and his angels are.

Verse 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they (God, the Lamb, and the servants in verse 1,2, 3 and 4) shall reign for ever and ever.
Do you believe a baby sheep will reign forever, too? If you take the Lake of Fire literally, you should take the Lamb literally.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2010, 12:52 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,423,420 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You still made a choice.
Indeed, never said otherwise. The point is, what was the cause or reason for that choice... ? GOD was the cause.

Let me ask you are you responsible for your own salvation? Or is salvation a complete work of God?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2010, 12:55 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,061,955 times
Reputation: 17784
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes I made a choice. But only because God showed me the truth of it. That is what I am trying to say. It was not from my own self - which is what I said before.

People make choices every day. But none of the choices is without a cause or a reason. When I began to believe in UR, it was because events in my life unfolded in a way in which I was open to receiving the truth of UR. That was God showing it to me. God opened my eyes, and I saw that He wills and desires to save all people, and that He will do it.

I can't choose to believe in ET now, because God showed me the truth.
Thank you, and I respect your choice ! Please forgive me for giving you such a difficult time in the past. I know we disagree with the plan of salvation, but that is no excuse from now on to hurt one another.

Yes, your right it is not of ourselves, yet, as you know that I believe God's grace draws us through His precious Spirit to Jesus, opening our hearts with the faith to believe His revelation and revealing what sin is and does.
Showing us why Jesus Christ came to this world to sacrifice His life, the ultimate sacrifice, His blood shed for our sin. Giving us the way to escape the darkness of sin we are born with and the destruction it does to our lives.

Now, I believe it is the person choice to agree with God as He reveals our sin, giving us the opportunity to turn and repent or continue in our unbelief.

He truly gives every soul born the choice..... to believe Him or not !!!
Yes, there will be consequences for those who choose not to believe God's plan. And that is where we disagree and I really don't want to talk about it with you again.
It gets us nowhere but hurtful words, feelings, and prideful actions. I'm leaving it up to God, truly am tired of defending my position in what I believe God has shown me about His truth, but completely trusting Him in all things. The Lord showed me just recently He is my defense and from now on to be still and know that He is God and watch the salvation of the Lord.

Blessings to you, legoman !! I do hope you can forgive me of the past..... Life is to short to argue, be resentful, so forth in our hearts about our disagreements.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-24-2010, 01:13 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,423,420 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Thank you, and I respect your choice ! Please forgive me for giving you such a difficult time in the past. I know we disagree with the plan of salvation, but that is no excuse from now on to hurt one another.

Yes, your right it is not of ourselves, yet, as you know that I believe God's grace draws us through His precious Spirit to Jesus, opening our hearts with the faith to believe His revelation and revealing what sin is and does.
Showing us why Jesus Christ came to this world to sacrifice His life, the ultimate sacrifice, His blood shed for our sin. Giving us the way to escape the darkness of sin we are born with and the destruction it does to our lives.

Now, I believe it is the person choice to agree with God as He reveals our sin, giving us the opportunity to turn and repent or continue in our unbelief.

He truly gives every soul born the choice..... to believe Him or not !!!
Yes, there will be consequences for those who choose not to believe God's plan. And that is where we disagree and I really don't want to talk about it with you again.
It gets us nowhere but hurtful words, feelings, and prideful actions. I'm leaving it up to God, truly am tired of defending my position in what I believe God has shown me about His truth, but completely trusting Him in all things. The Lord showed me just recently He is my defense and from now on to be still and know that He is God and watch the salvation of the Lord.

Blessings to you, legoman !! I do hope you can forgive me of the past..... Life is to short to argue, be resentful, so forth in our hearts about our disagreements.
Wow that was a nice post latte'chic! Blessings to you - I do forgive you and I hope you forgive me too when I get a little short with people.

These arguments we have do weigh on us, its much nicer just to explain a view without an expectation of trying to convert a person to that same view, or to somehow prove you are "right". You are right arguing or "debating" in a certain manner does not produce fruit, and can lead to hurtful and prideful feelings. It is also an exercise in frustration. Personally I think God lets us do this so we will all learn patience and forgiveness!

Its OK if we agree to disagree. I will pray for you and perhaps you will pray for me too! Because at least we do agree that God is great and merciful for what He has done for us.

Be well and be still in the Lord, Latte...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top