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Legoman, the resotoration and reconciliation that everyone speaks about, Dispensationalist, to Universalists, to everyone else is the NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH.
In order to decide what is the nature of this resoration, one needs to study this unending age.
I have. UR is in serious error IMO. It fails to understand the recipient of the blessings.
It only goes out to those who have........FAITH.
Is there merit in faith? If I have faith that it will rain today (and you know what I mean about today in Washington, right?) is there merit in that? but is it commendable? What is it about having faith that reflects grace onto the faithful when it is the faithless that needs the grace. If you already have favor with God because you are faithful then why would you need grace?
Legoman, the resotoration and reconciliation that everyone speaks about, Dispensationalist, to Universalists, to everyone else is the NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH.
In order to decide what is the nature of this resoration, one needs to study this unending age.
I have. UR is in serious error IMO. It fails to understand the recipient of the blessings.
It only goes out to those who have........FAITH.
Sciota, you mention this "final unending age" quite a bit. Please show me where it is in scripture.
Nope I don't deny that. Do you deny that in order to be consciously punished there must be a life? So what is the difference between the after life of the believer and the after life of the unbeliever regarding the fact they both live after death?
Sometimes I wonder about you...you aske man questions that are answered in the text....why?
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Did you mean spiritual separation for God or from God or both?
FROM God.
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So both deaths are spiritual?
Yes.
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So where does the physical death come in...?
It doesn't. It was always there for both.
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and didn't Christ conquer death? or just death for believers?
He conquered Death and HADES, the covenantal death, the power of death had over the saints..the sting their soul felt they felt when they died, etc, etc.
This is very important in understanding the Second Death IMO.
If you are a futurist or preterist, it does not matter. A futurist believes we die, we go to sleep...we wait for the ROTD, a preterist believes the opposite, that it already occured and we have eternal life now. Either way, at the ROTD, that POWER over the saints, the separation between God and Man, will either inherit one or the other into an unending age calle the New Heavens and Earth. For the saints, it is life. For those who are not, it is death.....eternal separation from God. Not temporal like it is prior to the ROTD....that the apostles hope for to be released from....like many do now....it is eternal.
Sea - Gentiles not bound to the Law
Death and Hades - Covenantal people bound to the Law
Death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire - Second Death
An action of the covental people NOT written in the book of life are thrown into the LOF - This action itself, NOT the Lake of Fire, is the second death. Those outside the CITY gates, suffer the same fate if they are without Christ - Covenantal DEATH, because THERE IS NO MORE SEA (Getiles not bound to the Law)
Everyone now is bound to the Law of Jesus Christ.
Don't believe, you suffer the second death. Simple.
I don't "prefer" any view. I believe what I have read, and ET exists in the New Heavens and Earth, the unending age, for those who are outside of Christ. It's ok, we can disagree, but I really need an exegesis for this view you and others present, because I have been all over the net and read the various arguements, and IMO, the scripture does not support UR in any way shape or form.
There are two set of people in scripture.
Righteous and Wicked. They both have their destination points.
One is eternal life with God. The other, is not.
If you want a thorough exegesis on how God will save all, it will take some time on your part to study. I would recommend you read Ray Smith`s Lake of fire series, starting here: http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
It is very long but is well worth going through if you are open and willing to study an opposing view.
It is important to understand what you "prefer", because IMHO one can make a case for UR, annihilation, or ET, by only looking at certain portions of the bible. So your preference may sway you to one or the other. But it is only when taken in all together that two of these views cannot be correct.
You seem to prefer ET because you change all the verses that say "all" being saved, "all" being reconciled, "all" being restored, to not really mean all.
You may have a lot of head knowledge of the bible, but to understand the scripture you have to have the heart/mind of God as well. Now we can argue all day who has the heart/mind of Christ or not.
But IMHO God does not want to torture or torment anyone forever. He`s not forced to do it either.
It is important to understand what you "prefer", because IMHO one can make a case for UR, annihilation, or ET, by using certain portions of the bible. So your preference may sway you to one or the other. But it is only when taken in all together that two of these views cannot be correct.
I don't prefer anything.
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You seem to prefer ET because you change all the verses that say "all" being saved, "all" being reconciled, "all" being restored, to not really mean all.
The New Creation is restored...but there are still wicked.
I don't prefer anything.
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You may have a lot of head knowledge of the bible, but to understand the scripture you have to have the heart/mind of God as well. Now we can argue all day who has the heart/mind of Christ or not.
Okey dokey! Like you know my heart......I am just telling you are worng with exegesis of the scripture. Because you have failed in countering it well, is your issue not mine. In fact, it is all of UR's issue...I have never seen a more divided group in my life! At least from futurists to preterist agree on the fundamental doctrines of the faith. Like God the Son, profess faith you are faith, etc. Ur has developed this God that reconciles everyone no matter what they believe in, based on their own carnal emotions and philosophies of eternality like it is something we already have.....eternal life is a GIFT for the measurement of FAITH we have in Him!
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But IMHO God does not want to torture or torment anyone forever. He`s not forced to do it either.
I know it is your opinion, an eisegetical opinion that does not weigh up with the text.
Give me a specific verse that speaks of this final unending age.
I gave you several areas of the scripture to read. It would behoove you to study on your own. When you have familiarizedd yourself with the state of the New Heavens and Earth, we can talk again. I won't make it that easy for you.
I gave you several areas of the scripture to read. It would behoove you to study on your own. When you have familiarizedd yourself with the state of the New Heavens and Earth, we can talk again. I won't make it that easy for you.
LOL ok I'll take it you don't have a specific scripture that speaks of the unending age then... you might as well just tell me to read the whole bible.
I have read the passages you mentioned, and I will read them again in the future. Thanks for your help...
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