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Old 04-24-2010, 01:39 PM
 
6,176 posts, read 3,604,602 times
Reputation: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post


Okey dokey! Like you know my heart......
I never said I knew your heart. But IMHO you do not know the heart and mind of God, as I understand it in the bible. You seem content (or ambivalent at least) that God would purpose people to be tormented forever. Correct me if I`m wrong.

Quote:
I am just telling you are worng with exegesis of the scripture. Because you have failed in countering it well, is your issue not mine. In fact, it is all of UR's issue...I have never seen a more divided group in my life! At least from futurists to preterist agree on the fundamental doctrines of the faith. Like God the Son, profess faith you are faith, etc. Ur has developed this God that reconciles everyone no matter what they believe in, based on their own carnal emotions and philosophies of eternality like it is something we already have.....eternal life is a GIFT for the measurement of FAITH we have in Him!

I know it is your opinion, an eisegetical opinion that does not weigh up with the text.
Um, yeah, ok, I guess that's your opinion.

Read the link I posted if you are interested in a thorough study on the matter.

Gotta run for now...
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,213 posts, read 3,032,959 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
LOL ok I'll take it you don't have a specific scripture that speaks of the unending age then... you might as well just tell me to read the whole bible.

I have read the passages you mentioned, and I will read them again in the future. Thanks for your help...
Legoman, I am trying to provoke further study in you as it appears you have not studied this much at all. Let me be clearer, the reconciliation and restoration of Israel post "millenium" is the New Heavens and Earth, where UR adheres to this final age to be completely and wholeheartedly restored. The Age post resurrection of the dead, where God is all in all, and where Death and sin has been defeated forever, after Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father, IS THE NEW HEAVENS and NEW EARTH. This age in unending. Any of the scriptures that deal with this final restoration of Israel, are the areas I am interested in your study of. There are so many, it would take you a couple of years if not more, as it has for me. It would be hard to study this in depth with you, as you don't have much of a grasp of it, as well as the Universalists I have read and spoken with. In this age, the scripture categorizes two types of people, wicked and righteous, as living in this age, which is unending.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,397,658 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Is there merit in faith? If I have faith that it will rain today (and you know what I mean about today in Washington, right?) is there merit in that? but is it commendable? What is it about having faith that reflects grace onto the faithful when it is the faithless that needs the grace. If you already have favor with God because you are faithful then why would you need grace?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sometimes I wonder about you...you aske man questions that are answered in the text....why?
because my version seems to be very different from yours.

Quote:
FROM God.
So you are saying that death in adam (which we all have) is spiritual separation FROM GOD.. yet the second death is MORE separation from God??? Does God have to RE-separate people after they fail to believe they aren't separated anymore?

How can you be separated from God twice...sounds redundant. Is the bible redundant or what? In your opinion.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,213 posts, read 3,032,959 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So you are saying that death in adam (which we all have) is spiritual separation FROM GOD.. yet the second death is MORE separation from God??? Does God have to RE-separate people after they fail to believe they aren't separated anymore?
Yes! And Christ reconciled that separation, for everyone! But if you deny Him, you die again!

Quote:
How can you be separated from God twice...sounds redundant. Is the bible redundant or what? In your opinion.
Adam died - we died.
Christ lives - We live.
Deny Christ - We die again.

Remember the covenants.

Old Covenant - Death
New Covenant - Life
Deny New Covenant - Die again
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:59 PM
 
9,095 posts, read 4,464,287 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Yes! And Christ reconciled that separation, for everyone! But if you deny Him, you die again!



Adam died - we died.
Christ lives - We live.
Deny Christ - We die again.

Remember the covenants.

Old Covenant - Death
New Covenant - Life
Deny New Covenant - Die again
That might be too obvious to understand.

Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:09 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,025,810 times
Reputation: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Yes! And Christ reconciled that separation, for everyone! But if you deny Him, you die again!



Adam died - we died.
Christ lives - We live.
Deny Christ - We die again.

Remember the covenants.

Old Covenant - Death
New Covenant - Life
Deny New Covenant - Die again
Hmmm that one of Christ living so everyone is living and the not believing die again seems to be adding steps in -----

We are told that believing passes someone from "death" to "life" the unbelieving at the point of physical death are not passed from "death" to "life"

I see no scripture that says that unbelievers are spiritually alive then suffer the second death -- The dead are judged then suffer the second death.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,397,658 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Yes! And Christ reconciled that separation, for everyone! But if you deny Him, you die again!



Adam died - we died.
Christ lives - We live.
Deny Christ - We die again.

Remember the covenants.

Old Covenant - Death
New Covenant - Life
Deny New Covenant - Die again
So you are saying that everyone receives the life of the covenant but by not doing anything or denying it they lose that life?? So Jesus saved them by bringing in the New Covenant but God says that's not good enough and kills them off again?

I don't know if you really understand "second death" because it is only in Revelation. How you gather all that from just those 4 verses is beyond me....

In fact it makes less sense when you read the first mention of the second death...

Rev. 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Will not be hurt by... doesn't that imply going through the second death but not being hurt by it? Why doesn't it say "will not experience" the second death as you seem to believe?
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Old 04-24-2010, 03:09 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 947,073 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
LOL....Kingdom Literal is how I take it. That is of the spirit.
Typical response.....nice try.
What is Kingdom Literal?
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Old 04-24-2010, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,213 posts, read 3,032,959 times
Reputation: 401
Caps are not used to signify yelling, just making a point, so it isn't missed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I see no scripture that says that unbelievers are spiritually alive then suffer the second death -- The dead are judged then suffer the second death.
Meerkat, you are confused. The Second Death is Death and Hades cast into the Lake of Fire. Unbelievers are not spiritually alive without Christ...they are spiritually dead. Those not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. That is the dead judgement. Death and Hades cast into the VERY SAME LAKE OF FIRE, is the Second Death.

This is covenantal death. The Covenant of Works and Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire. Those in the New Heavens and New Earth, without Christ and outside of the New Jerusalem, SUFFER THE SECOND DEATH.

This is covenantal....why?

Because there si NO MORE SEA, there is NO MORE GENTILE dsictinction between who is bound by the law and who is not. We are all bound under the FULFILLED COVENANT IN CHRIST. Denial of that, second death.
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Old 04-24-2010, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,439,208 times
Reputation: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Legoman, I am trying to provoke further study in you as it appears you have not studied this much at all. Let me be clearer, the reconciliation and restoration of Israel post "millenium" is the New Heavens and Earth, where UR adheres to this final age to be completely and wholeheartedly restored. The Age post resurrection of the dead, where God is all in all, and where Death and sin has been defeated forever, after Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father, IS THE NEW HEAVENS and NEW EARTH. This age in unending. Any of the scriptures that deal with this final restoration of Israel, are the areas I am interested in your study of. There are so many, it would take you a couple of years if not more, as it has for me. It would be hard to study this in depth with you, as you don't have much of a grasp of it, as well as the Universalists I have read and spoken with. In this age, the scripture categorizes two types of people, wicked and righteous, as living in this age, which is unending.
I'm wondering why Eph. 2:7 is translated "ages" instead of "age".

"in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus".

Any ideas?
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