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Old 04-24-2010, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,643,195 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Meerkat,

This isn't about Preterism.
This is about what is the nature of the New Heavens and Earth.
Yet it does because you believe the NH&E are today whereas a futurist would think it still to come.

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And to answer you about the fellow in Africa who has never heard the gospel....maybe you should help a Bible believing organization so that thath messgae gets to him.
10 dollars will buy hundreds of Bibles for them. Isn't that our duty?
What is the purpose in that? How will they ever come to understand what you have made so complicated with just a bible? What about doctrine?

Quote:
Let's look at the scripture, because what I think, or you think, is really irrelevant isn't it now?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Who is without excuse?

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The biblical teaching is explicit on this point. People don’t go to Hell simply for rejecting Jesus; people go to Hell because they are sinners.
So the covenant doesn't affect them then?

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Not believing in Jesus simply seals their fate. Romans 1:18-20 is telling us that the whole world is guilty before God wholly apart from the gospel of Christ. That means there is no such thing as a truly “innocent” person or a truly “innocent” heathen. People aren’t innocent before God; they are morally guilty of rejecting the truth about God.
I thought you said they were guilty of sin...


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When people who have never heard the gospel die, their eternal fate is not determined by whether or not they rejected Jesus. You can’t reject a person you never knew in the first place. Let us say it again: People go to Hell because they are sinners, not because they are unbelievers. Refusing to believe in Jesus simply seals their fate.
Ok... now I'm really confused.

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Hence, the second death under the New Heavens and Earth....where there are sinners, and where there is life.
So the NH&E are part of the covenant and sinners are there.. but yet sinners aren't part of the covenant???

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Paul’s conclusion is simple indeed....the whole world is “without excuse.” It is impossible to imagine a more complete condemnation of the human race. The indictment is so complete that it allows for no exceptions, no special cases. Everyone knows God through creation. Everyone suppresses the truth about God. Everyone is therefore without excuse. And that is why everyone stands under the wrath of God, this was sealed under Adam.

These words are trans-cultural and trans-generational. They are as true of the 20th century materialist as they were of the 1st century pagan. They are true of the Chicago yuppie and of the spear-chucking headhunter in some remote African village. What is true of one is true of the other. Both have known the truth of God. Both have suppressed that truth by their sin nature, their flesh, their corruptible body. Both are guilty before God. Both are under the wrath of God. Both stand in desperate need of the salvation provided in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The whole human race is therefore under the wrath of God, facing ultimate condemnation and eternal death in Hell.
It is interesting that the whole human race is under the wrath of God since you just said that believers are not... how does that work again?
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:40 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,006,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
No, about excuses....
The verse you referred to doesn't have anything to do with people who never hear the gospel, although it is commonly taught. It is clearly talking about the people to whom "God has made it plain," as you can see in verse 19. Someone asked you about people in Africa that have never heard of Jesus, and your answer was to give them a bible, but when I asked what if they couldn't read, you said they didn't have an excuse.

So, to answer your question about what Paul said about an excuse:
What are God's invisible qualities since the creation of the world? His eternal power and divine nature

How have they been clearly seen? Being understood from what has been made
So, you tell me. What is clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, that reveals God's invisible qualities since the creation of the world, of His eternal power and divine nature, that demonstrates torture with no end? Can you name an animal, insect, season, plant, weather pattern, natural disaster, sea creature, planet, anything at all in nature, that shows us God's invisible quality of torturing people to administer endless agony and suffering, not just for a while, but forever?

Romans 1:
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,952,010 times
Reputation: 425
People have no excuse to behave badly is how I look at it. Even the Gentiles were a law unto themselves, before they heard the gospel, which was fine. God winked at their ignorance.

But, they could look around and see creation, and they should have known that they didn't just pop up out of nowhere, and many of them worshiped all kinds of things, BELIEVING something was out there, but most of them still had a conscience. So, in that regard, they are without excuse.

It's hard to look around at the orderliness of creation and pretend that it is all just chaos, so you can do whatever you want.

I believe that those who don't understand what is going on, mentally confused, paranoid, or just never heard about Christ will be judged based on their conscience, which is God-given.

Without excuse. Pretending there is no lawgiver. Lawless. Going against your conscience.

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Old 04-24-2010, 11:48 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,006,531 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
People have no excuse to behave badly is how I look at it. Even the Gentiles were a law unto themselves, before they heard the gospel, which was fine. God winked at their ignorance.

But, they could look around and see creation, and they should have known that they didn't just pop up out of nowhere, and many of them worshiped all kinds of things, BELIEVING something was out there, but most of them still had a conscience. So, in that regard, they are without excuse.

It's hard to look around at the orderliness of creation and pretend that it is all just chaos, so you can do whatever you want.

I believe that those who don't understand what is going on, mentally confused, paranoid, or just never heard about Christ will be judged based on their conscience, which is God-given.

Without excuse. Pretending there is no lawgiver. Lawless. Going against your conscience.

I agree. I've made the point on this forum before that even a two-year-old knows a lot about right and wrong without being taught. A little child has a conscience, and knows not to drown their cat or set their puppy on fire.

Nature and all creation are orderly, like you said, and there are basic human instincts that teach us a lot about how the world works. So, if creation is the guide for those who don't know about God to understand his divine nature, it certainly wouldn't point them in the direction of eternal torment.
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,952,010 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I agree. I've made the point on this forum before that even a two-year-old knows a lot about right and wrong without being taught. A little child has a conscience, and knows not to drown their cat or set their puppy on fire.

Nature and all creation are orderly, like you said, and there are basic human instincts that teach us a lot about how the world works. So, if creation is the guide for those who don't know about God to understand his divine nature, it certainly wouldn't point them in the direction of eternal torment.

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Old 04-24-2010, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,952,010 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I agree. I've made the point on this forum before that even a two-year-old knows a lot about right and wrong without being taught. A little child has a conscience, and knows not to drown their cat or set their puppy on fire.

Nature and all creation are orderly, like you said, and there are basic human instincts that teach us a lot about how the world works. So, if creation is the guide for those who don't know about God to understand his divine nature, it certainly wouldn't point them in the direction of eternal torment.

You wouldn't think so.
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:29 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,205,156 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet it does because you believe the NH&E are today whereas a futurist would think it still to come.
no it does not. Whether you are futurist or preterist, The NH and E has SIN.

Quote:
What is the purpose in that? How will they ever come to understand what you have made so complicated with just a bible? What about doctrine?
What does Paul say?

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Who is without excuse?
Paul says everyone.

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So the covenant doesn't affect them then?
Yes it does.

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I thought you said they were guilty of sin...
Everyone is.

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Ok... now I'm really confused.
Maybe you should read more.

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So the NH&E are part of the covenant and sinners are there.. but yet sinners aren't part of the covenant???
The Heavens and Earth is the order, the government under Christ.
Sinner are outside of the covenant, because they don't believe, but the order and system is under Christ...He is the only way to salvation....is it really that hard?

The Old Heavens and Earth does not EQUAL the Old Covenant.
The New Heavens and Earth does not EQUAL the New Covenant.
These covenant are, within the system and order.

Capice?

Let me explain further Kat....you are a preterist right, or at least you claim to be one....the Temple and its worship is the Old Heavens and Earth, The principles and rudiments of the system, not the covenant itself. The same goes for the New Heavens and Earth...it is the rudimentary principalities of the order and government under Christ. Because of the New Covenant, we have the New Heavens and Earth.

Capice?

Quote:
It is interesting that the whole human race is under the wrath of God since you just said that believers are not... how does that work again?
The whole human race is UNDER the wrath of God, but for those in Christ, that wrath is taken away....so saith the scripture.
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:34 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,205,156 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
The verse you referred to doesn't have anything to do with people who never hear the gospel, although it is commonly taught. It is clearly talking about the people to whom "God has made it plain," as you can see in verse 19.
You are wrong.
Let's look at it again....shall we?

and you can see in verse 20, which is what I quoted, but you have seemed to disregard...

Verse 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

And verse 19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Care to elaborate...or does this really mean the saints where it has been showed to them? ....again the above is a perfect example of the Universalist who can't even discern the scriptures, thus removing it from its entire context. Who is Romans written to? The ungodly!

So you believe that no one is born into sin and the wrath of God does not abide in them till profession of Christ?
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:37 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,205,156 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
ce.


I believe that those who don't understand what is going on, mentally confused, paranoid, or just never heard about Christ will be judged based on their conscience, which is God-given.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I agree. I've made the point on this forum before that even a two-year-old knows a lot about right and wrong without being taught. A little child has a conscience, and knows not to drown their cat or set their puppy on fire.

Nature and all creation are orderly, like you said, and there are basic human instincts that teach us a lot about how the world works. So, if creation is the guide for those who don't know about God to understand his divine nature, it certainly wouldn't point them in the direction of eternal torment.
Do you two have any scripture to support this view? Or is it just a presupposition on your part?
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Old 04-25-2010, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,952,010 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Do you two have any scripture to support this view? Or is it just a presupposition on your part?

Yes, I have biblical support, and I'll let you know what that is when you use my whole post in your reply, instead of the last few sentences, since you basically cut out a big chunk of my thought process that I used to get to that last paragraph.


In fact, there were 3 verses in my first paragraph that back me up. I just paraphrased them.

I've got to get to bed, so I'll get back to you Sunday afternoon, if BHFT doesn't answer before I do.

Last edited by herefornow; 04-25-2010 at 01:58 AM..
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