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Old 04-25-2010, 02:12 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
no it does not. Whether you are futurist or preterist, The NH and E has SIN.



What does Paul say?



Paul says everyone.



Yes it does.



Everyone is.



Maybe you should read more.
So everyone is under the authority/rule of Christ but not everyone is under the covenant?

Are we talking about the same covenant?

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

Isn't this what you are using to say that all men are under God's wrath and have no excuse? Or am I simply confused?



Quote:
The Heavens and Earth is the order, the government under Christ.
Sinner are outside of the covenant, because they don't believe, but the order and system is under Christ...He is the only way to salvation....is it really that hard?

The Old Heavens and Earth does not EQUAL the Old Covenant.
The New Heavens and Earth does not EQUAL the New Covenant.
These covenant are, within the system and order.

Capice?
So the promises of the covenant affect all men but the heavens and earth have nothing to do with that? How can you say that all men are under the authority of the kingdom even though they are not citizens of the covenant of the kingdom?

Quote:
Let me explain further Kat....you are a preterist right, or at least you claim to be one....the Temple and its worship is the Old Heavens and Earth, The principles and rudiments of the system, not the covenant itself. The same goes for the New Heavens and Earth...it is the rudimentary principalities of the order and government under Christ. Because of the New Covenant, we have the New Heavens and Earth.

Capice?



The whole human race is UNDER the wrath of God, but for those in Christ, that wrath is taken away....so saith the scripture.
I understand that... however you are saying that everyone is under the wrath of God... Usually the wrath of God ends in death not eternal torture or annihilation. How does this all affect an afterlife? Especially in light of preterism.

Are you saying that the afterlife is the NH&E too?? The connections you are making are far-fetched at best... not to mention confusing and complicated. It seems like you are talking in circles in doctrine code.
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Old 04-25-2010, 03:59 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,565,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The whole human race is UNDER the wrath of God, but for those in Christ, that wrath is taken away....so saith the scripture.
You do understand that "UNDER the wrath of God" = "Expelled from the Garden", capice?
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Old 04-25-2010, 08:20 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,720,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You are wrong.
Let's look at it again....shall we?

and you can see in verse 20, which is what I quoted, but you have seemed to disregard...

Verse 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

And verse 19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Care to elaborate...or does this really mean the saints where it has been showed to them? ....again the above is a perfect example of the Universalist who can't even discern the scriptures, thus removing it from its entire context. Who is Romans written to? The ungodly!

So you believe that no one is born into sin and the wrath of God does not abide in them till profession of Christ?
You did the same thing to me as you did to herefornow. You cut out a chunk of my post. It makes no sense for you to say, "and you can see in verse 20, which is what I quoted, but you have seemed to disregard..." when not only did I talk about that for the remainder of the post, but I quoted it in blue in my post. Your quote, "So you believe that no one is born into sin and the wrath of God does not abide in them till profession of Christ," doesn't even have anything to do with what I was saying, and I certainly never even hinted that no one is born into sin. I was trying to show you that nothing in creation that is clearly seen shows God's divine nature as being one who would torture forever, but you want to believe that something in nature demonstrates that God will torture but can't find anything, so you avoid my point. So you proved with your own words who the one is who is removing something from its entire context.

Quote from BHFT:
The verse you referred to doesn't have anything to do with people who never hear the gospel, although it is commonly taught. It is clearly talking about the people to whom "God has made it plain," as you can see in verse 19. Someone asked you about people in Africa that have never heard of Jesus, and your answer was to give them a bible, but when I asked what if they couldn't read, you said they didn't have an excuse.

So, to answer your question about what Paul said about an excuse:
What are God's invisible qualities since the creation of the world? His eternal power and divine nature

How have they been clearly seen? Being understood from what has been made
So, you tell me. What is clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, that reveals God's invisible qualities since the creation of the world, of His eternal power and divine nature, that demonstrates torture with no end? Can you name an animal, insect, season, plant, weather pattern, natural disaster, sea creature, planet, anything at all in nature, that shows us God's invisible quality of torturing people to administer endless agony and suffering, not just for a while, but forever?

Romans 1:
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
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Old 04-25-2010, 08:38 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,720,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You are wrong.
Let's look at it again....shall we?

and you can see in verse 20, which is what I quoted, but you have seemed to disregard...

Verse 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

And verse 19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Care to elaborate...or does this really mean the saints where it has been showed to them? ....again the above is a perfect example of the Universalist who can't even discern the scriptures, thus removing it from its entire context. Who is Romans written to? The ungodly!

So you believe that no one is born into sin and the wrath of God does not abide in them till profession of Christ?

Yes, I'll elaborate. And please take special note of verse 21 that tells us exactly who is without excuse: they knew God.

Romans 1:

6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

11I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith. 13I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles.
14I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. 15That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are at Rome.
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[c] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
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Old 04-25-2010, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,284,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
You do understand that "UNDER the wrath of God" = "Expelled from the Garden", capice?
So you are saying that the action itself constitutes the only time where the wrath of God was executed on mankind?
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Old 04-25-2010, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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BHFT,

The prose is directed to the saints living in Rome, but one of the clear cut messages is about:

A. Men by nature suppress the truth about God.
B. That suppression leads to ungodliness.
C. Ungodliness leads on to wickedness.

The upshot is that Paul is teaching that moral perversion comes from perversion in faith. Or to say it another way, apostasy in doctrine leads eventually to apostasy in lifestyle. What you believe is how you live. And once you decide to turn your back on God, the end result is a river of wickedness flowing out of your life. The only thing damming that river is the constraint of your own conscience or the constraint of circumstances. Left to himself man always turns to wickedness. Always. There are no exceptions.

First men reject the truth about God, then they turn away from God, then they turn to immorality. And the shocking truth is that this goes on all the time. Every baby born into this world comes in with a disposition that turns him away from the truth. Each man, each woman, the educated and the illiterate alike, all by nature suppress the truth about God. Left to your own devices, you will always turn to wickedness.

Verse 19 says it two different times: “Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.” Then verse 20 says it again: “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen.”

There is something about God....a deposit of truth, if you will, which God has made so plain that no one can miss it. When Paul twice says that it is “plain to them,” he is referring to the impact on the human conscience. Not only is the revelation clearly seen, but that revelation of God in nature impacts the human conscience. Men know there is a God because their conscience tells them so.

I applaud your study, but you have focused on one area of the scripture only to prove your point, rather than step back, and see the mutiple messages involved.
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Old 04-25-2010, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,284,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So everyone is under the authority/rule of Christ but not everyone is under the covenant?
Yes. Christians are in covenant, they have professed their faith in Christ.
Remember, ROD OF IRON.

Quote:
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

Isn't this what you are using to say that all men are under God's wrath and have no excuse? Or am I simply confused?
You are born under the wrath of God. And yes, the covenant you posted is the New Covenant...the one, SAINTS, Israel - Jew and Gentile, are bound to.

Quote:
So the promises of the covenant affect all men but the heavens and earth have nothing to do with that? How can you say that all men are under the authority of the kingdom even though they are not citizens of the covenant of the kingdom?
The kingdom is Christians and Saints of the Mosaic Age, Christ, God, the Holy Spirit...ie the New Jerusalem.

Quote:
I understand that... however you are saying that everyone is under the wrath of God... Usually the wrath of God ends in death not eternal torture or annihilation. How does this all affect an afterlife? Especially in light of preterism.
Everyone on earth alive. Once you die you are judged.

Quote:
Are you saying that the afterlife is the NH&E too?? The connections you are making are far-fetched at best... not to mention confusing and complicated. It seems like you are talking in circles in doctrine code.
Interesting thought. The New Jerusalem is in the NH and E, and it is the spritual hub between God, the Lamb and His saints...so why wouldn't it be?
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Old 04-25-2010, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Kat,

Remember, the age before the Parousia, INCLUDING the after life, everyone was destined to die and end up in Hades, in the Abraham's Bosom, or the Fire, and those "rudiments and principles" of that time was among the Old Heavens and Earth. The modeled world since Adam, that led to the Law, which led to Christ that changed the "fabric" of everything that is, seen and unseen, into the New Heveans and Earth.
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Old 04-25-2010, 09:49 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,720,522 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
BHFT,

The prose is directed to the saints living in Rome, but one of the clear cut messages is about:

A. Men by nature suppress the truth about God.
B. That suppression leads to ungodliness.
C. Ungodliness leads on to wickedness.

The upshot is that Paul is teaching that moral perversion comes from perversion in faith. Or to say it another way, apostasy in doctrine leads eventually to apostasy in lifestyle. What you believe is how you live. And once you decide to turn your back on God, the end result is a river of wickedness flowing out of your life. The only thing damming that river is the constraint of your own conscience or the constraint of circumstances. Left to himself man always turns to wickedness. Always. There are no exceptions.

First men reject the truth about God, then they turn away from God, then they turn to immorality. And the shocking truth is that this goes on all the time. Every baby born into this world comes in with a disposition that turns him away from the truth. Each man, each woman, the educated and the illiterate alike, all by nature suppress the truth about God. Left to your own devices, you will always turn to wickedness.

Verse 19 says it two different times: “Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.” Then verse 20 says it again: “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen.”

There is something about God....a deposit of truth, if you will, which God has made so plain that no one can miss it. When Paul twice says that it is “plain to them,” he is referring to the impact on the human conscience. Not only is the revelation clearly seen, but that revelation of God in nature impacts the human conscience. Men know there is a God because their conscience tells them so.

I applaud your study, but you have focused on one area of the scripture only to prove your point, rather than step back, and see the mutiple messages involved.
Good post, and I applaud you for correcting your misstatement that Romans was written to the ungodly. However, I guess you could have meant ungodly believers. Anyway, I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but again, you failed to address my point. Through creation God reveals his divine nature. What in nature reveals that burning people consciously for eternity is divine?

Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 04-25-2010 at 10:58 AM..
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Old 04-25-2010, 09:59 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,720,522 times
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Originally Posted by herefornow

I believe that those who don't understand what is going on, mentally confused, paranoid, or just never heard about Christ will be judged based on their conscience, which is God-given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow
I agree. I've made the point on this forum before that even a two-year-old knows a lot about right and wrong without being taught. A little child has a conscience, and knows not to drown their cat or set their puppy on fire.

Nature and all creation are orderly, like you said, and there are basic human instincts that teach us a lot about how the world works. So, if creation is the guide for those who don't know about God to understand his divine nature, it certainly wouldn't point them in the direction of eternal torment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Do you two have any scripture to support this view? Or is it just a presupposition on your part?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You also said about the conscience:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
There is something about God....a deposit of truth, if you will, which God has made so plain that no one can miss it. When Paul twice says that it is “plain to them,” he is referring to the impact on the human conscience. Not only is the revelation clearly seen, but that revelation of God in nature impacts the human conscience. Men know there is a God because their conscience tells them so.

I'm not sure for what part of the dialog you're asking for scripture support. Did you mean the part about being judged by conscience if they've never heard of God, or did you mean the part where I said nature doesn't point in the direction of eternal torment? Thanks.
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