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Old 04-21-2010, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,519 posts, read 31,909,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I didn't ask you to prove anything. I asked you to explain, given God being all-powerful and all-loving, how He can purpose or allow people to be tormented forever. It is a contradiction.
It is not a contradiction, it is just that you can't comprehend that a loving God would do something like that. Why did loving God drown millions in the flood? Why did loving God tell Joshua and Israel to slaughter countless people in Israel? Why does all powerful God allow anything bad to happen? Why has he hardened the hearts is Jews today? He is a sovereign God and he will do as he pleases, and he made the rules about who will be saved and who will not be saved. What you cannot understand is that he made the rules, and to break them would make him a liar, which is impossible. But of course we are beating the dead horse, because we have been through all this so many times.
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Old 04-21-2010, 06:10 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,722,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is not a contradiction, it is just that you can't comprehend that a loving God would do something like that. Why did loving God drown millions in the flood? Why did loving God tell Joshua and Israel to slaughter countless people in Israel? Why does all powerful God allow anything bad to happen? Why has he hardened the hearts is Jews today? He is a sovereign God and he will do as he pleases, and he made the rules about who will be saved and who will not be saved. What you cannot understand is that he made the rules, and to break them would make him a liar, which is impossible. But of course we are beating the dead horse, because we have been through all this so many times.
There is no comparison between allowing someone to die a physical death and torturing them forever. Everyone dies, so why ask "Why did loving God drown millions in the flood?" You might as well ask, "Why does a loving God allow people to die of disease, or in car wrecks, or natural disasters?" God is loving and letting someone pass from this life to the next doesn't negate that. Torturing them forever would, though.
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Old 04-21-2010, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,519 posts, read 31,909,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
There is no comparison between allowing someone to die a physical death and torturing them forever. Everyone dies, so why ask "Why did loving God drown millions in the flood?" You might as well ask, "Why does a loving God allow people to die of disease, or in car wrecks, or natural disasters?" God is loving and letting someone pass from this life to the next doesn't negate that. Torturing them forever would, though.
So you think he drowned the people because they were wicked and then he took them to heaven??? Now that would not make any sense at all.

Why did God kill them? Because they were wicked.

What happens to those who are wicked? They go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

How about the righteous? They are rewarded eternal life.

It is repeated over, and over and over in the Bible, so anyone who reads it knows the truth.
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Old 04-21-2010, 06:46 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
So you think he drowned the people because they were wicked and then he took them to heaven??? Now that would not make any sense at all.

Why did God kill them? Because they were wicked.

What happens to those who are wicked? They go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

How about the righteous? They are rewarded eternal life.

It is repeated over, and over and over in the Bible, so anyone who reads it knows the truth.

Anyone who reads the various English mistranslations of the scriptures would think they see what you are referring to ... However aionios does not mean eternal, and anyone who studies deeper than the surface will eventually discover that to be the truth if their hearts are not hard as stone and they are able to understand what the spirit of the living word is actually saying ...

One day you will understand.
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Old 04-21-2010, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,010 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
So you think he drowned the people because they were wicked and then he took them to heaven??? Now that would not make any sense at all.

Why did God kill them? Because they were wicked.

What happens to those who are wicked? They go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

How about the righteous? They are rewarded eternal life.

It is repeated over, and over and over in the Bible, so anyone who reads it knows the truth.
I find it interesting that there are many, even conservative evangelical types, who believe that Jesus was preaching to the people or fallen angels of Noah's time when He died. When it says that He went and preached to the spirits in prison in I Peter 3:19, something strange is going on. He is preaching to something or somebody that disobeyed during Noah's time. Whether these things are angelic or not, I don't know. I personally believe in soul sleep, so I am wondering whether He is preaching to these fallen angels who messed up during Noah's time. There is much commentary on this passage and just as much confusion about it.

The commentators disagree among themselves. Just like they do about a lot of passages. When men say that they know EXACTLY what something means, I back off a bit. They CANNOT know EVERYTHING! When just 1 man is made to pastor hundreds or even thousands of people I guess he just doesn't want to look a fool and say, "I don't know." So, he comes up with something or he copies others. Even the disciples were arguing amongst themselves about all sorts of things.

It is ridiculous after 2000 years and after all these translational difficulties to think that our pastors and leaders know EXACTLY what is going on. They CANNOT possibly be 100% right about everything 100% of the time. They are WRONG about SOMETHING! And sometimes they are wrong about things that are VERY important.

Even Martin Luther, who never was at a loss for words, could not make out Revelation, and had nothing to say about Ezekiel 14. He was confused. MARTIN LUTHER!

There are a lot of verses in the Bible that talk about strange things that don't make much sense if you take judging the "GOOD" and "WICKED" so simply.

I think there is much more to God than a guy that sits around saying, "you are good, go to heaven; you are bad, go to hell." He PLEADS with flesh, He is sad and angry and loving all at the same time. I think He is much more complex than you or I can imagine.
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Old 04-21-2010, 07:38 PM
 
352 posts, read 476,539 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Anyone who reads the various English mistranslations of the scriptures would think they see what you are referring to ... However aionios does not mean eternal, and anyone who studies deeper than the surface will eventually discover that to be the truth if their hearts are not hard as stone and they are able to understand what the spirit of the living word is actually saying ...

One day you will understand.
I'm sorry for coming in so late, but I had to make one comment and them I'm done here for the most part. Ironmaw, you are mistaken in regards to aion and aionios. Aion has two meanings: one that means an indefinite period of time (eternity) and a period that is undefined, but not eternal. It's only under the proper context that the meaning changes, but even then that is subject to interpretation.

Furthermore, aionios, which appears over 70 times, means eternal when used in the adjective form.

You can't limit the meaning of the term down to just the second definition because the term applies both to eternal hell and eternal life. To follow your definition would say that eternal life isn't eternal nor is God.
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Old 04-21-2010, 07:52 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,722,368 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
So you think he drowned the people because they were wicked and then he took them to heaven??? Now that would not make any sense at all.

Why did God kill them? Because they were wicked.

What happens to those who are wicked? They go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

How about the righteous? They are rewarded eternal life.

It is repeated over, and over and over in the Bible, so anyone who reads it knows the truth.
The wicked will be in heaven after they are judged, punished fairly, and corrected. The "eternal fire" is symbolic of God's fair judgment. "For our God is a consuming fire." Jesus "came to baptize with water and with fire." "For everyone will be salted with fire."

The righteous are indeed "rewarded according to their works," but not with eternal life. Eternal life is to "know God."

John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Revelation 22:12
ďAnd behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Finn, what do you believe the red part of the verse below means?

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
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Old 04-21-2010, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,519 posts, read 31,909,570 times
Reputation: 9412
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I find it interesting that there are many, even conservative evangelical types, who believe that Jesus was preaching to the people or fallen angels of Noah's time when He died. When it says that He went and preached to the spirits in prison in I Peter 3:19, something strange is going on. He is preaching to something or somebody that disobeyed during Noah's time. Whether these things are angelic or not, I don't know. I personally believe in soul sleep, so I am wondering whether He is preaching to these fallen angels who messed up during Noah's time. There is much commentary on this passage and just as much confusion about it.

The commentators disagree among themselves. Just like they do about a lot of passages. When men say that they know EXACTLY what something means, I back off a bit. They CANNOT know EVERYTHING! When just 1 man is made to pastor hundreds or even thousands of people I guess he just doesn't want to look a fool and say, "I don't know." So, he comes up with something or he copies others. Even the disciples were arguing amongst themselves about all sorts of things.

It is ridiculous after 2000 years and after all these translational difficulties to think that our pastors and leaders know EXACTLY what is going on. They CANNOT possibly be 100% right about everything 100% of the time. They are WRONG about SOMETHING! And sometimes they are wrong about things that are VERY important.

Even Martin Luther, who never was at a loss for words, could not make out Revelation, and had nothing to say about Ezekiel 14. He was confused. MARTIN LUTHER!

There are a lot of verses in the Bible that talk about strange things that don't make much sense if you take judging the "GOOD" and "WICKED" so simply.

I think there is much more to God than a guy that sits around saying, "you are good, go to heaven; you are bad, go to hell." He PLEADS with flesh, He is sad and angry and loving all at the same time. I think He is much more complex than you or I can imagine.
Yes it is easy to be wrong about something like I Peter 3:19 and the Noah time spirits which are referred to in so few places, but it is difficult to misunderstand the basic message of salvation in the NT which is repeated in almost every page of the Bible.
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,519 posts, read 31,909,570 times
Reputation: 9412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Finn, what do you believe the red part of the verse below means?

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
I'll tell you what it is not. It is not promise of universal salvation. Being kind is one thing, but granting univeral salvation to sinners is another. It is heretical.

Yes, God loves the world, but only those who believe in him will be saved. Those are his rules, and he cannot break them.
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:08 PM
 
Location: PA
45 posts, read 39,929 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Anyone who reads the various English mistranslations of the scriptures would think they see what you are referring to ... However aionios does not mean eternal, and anyone who studies deeper than the surface will eventually discover that to be the truth if their hearts are not hard as stone and they are able to understand what the spirit of the living word is actually saying ...

One day you will understand.
Just a point to ponder, as we all believe what we believe, but my husband who asks a lot of "debate" sort of questions, made a good point (not that I believe it, but it's interesting to think of).......since man wrote down all the Scripture and passed it on and on by word of mouth and men are not perfect, and the Word has been rewritten over and over and over, that there is the chance that there are more incorrect things in it than we realize? No, I don't believe this, I believe that the Holy Spirit was guiding all the writings, but wouldn't that just be ironic that man's imperfection mistranslated everything worse and worse over the years? EEK!!!

Just like here or any other forums or anywhere else anyone writes anything, it's so hard to tell what exactly they're trying to get across sometimes because you don't have the sound of their voice expressing or facial or body expressions, you know, so people will always interpret things differently than one another. So could also be true with Scripture. I agree with whomever said that you really need the Holy Spirit to guide you in your reading (not sure that's exactly how whomever said it) to fully comprehend what's being said. One day we'll all know the truth if we don't now.
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