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Old 04-21-2010, 09:10 PM
 
Location: PA
45 posts, read 39,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
I believe this. I think God loves everyone as much as the next, as we should, however, He's also not going to tolerate the wicked and they will be judged accordingly.
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Old 04-21-2010, 09:20 PM
 
37,579 posts, read 25,282,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellamamma View Post
I believe this. I think God loves everyone as much as the next, as we should, however, He's also not going to tolerate the wicked and they will be judged accordingly.
No one is disputing that . . . but accordingly could NEVER be ET!
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Old 04-21-2010, 09:45 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,722,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I'll tell you what it is not. It is not promise of universal salvation. Being kind is one thing, but granting univeral salvation to sinners is another. It is heretical.

Yes, God loves the world, but only those who believe in him will be saved. Those are his rules, and he cannot break them.
So, is your answer that He is not really kind to the evil even though that verse says He is, or that He is being kind when He burns them forever?

Do you think it's heretical if someone lives as a sinner during his/her whole life, and then has a deathbed confession at the very end and goes to heaven? I'm just curious what you believe because many people would think they don't deserve to be "granted" salvation in that case.

The next question might not apply to your view, but in my church the question arises "Are they really saved?" For example, my Sunday School teacher said that if she saw someone coming out of a rated-R movie, she would have to wonder if they were "really saved." But if you get where I'm coming from on that, do you think people can believe in Jesus and believe in their hearts that they are really saved, and not be?

So, what I've been taught in the Baptist church is:

- You can live like the devil for 99 years and say a "simple prayer" at the end of your life and go to heaven, as long as you really mean it.

- You can live like a near-perfect Christian, read your Bible, pray, ask for God to save you, but not really "get it" and only have head knowledge instead of heart knowledge, and then die at 16 and go to hell.

How do you interpret "his rules" in these cases? You said on the other post that God letting the wicked die and then letting them go to heaven doesn't make sense. If you believe the two scenarios above are his rules, do you think it makes sense? Or maybe you don't believe those two scenarios. If someone else does, feel free to comment.
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:00 PM
 
Location: PA
45 posts, read 39,939 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
No one is disputing that . . . but accordingly could NEVER be ET!
I'm curious then, what do you make of Rev. 20:12-13; 22:12? Not arguing, I'm truly interested.
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:29 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,206,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
I'm sorry for coming in so late, but I had to make one comment and them I'm done here for the most part. Ironmaw, you are mistaken in regards to aion and aionios. Aion has two meanings: one that means an indefinite period of time (eternity) and a period that is undefined, but not eternal. It's only under the proper context that the meaning changes, but even then that is subject to interpretation.

Furthermore, aionios, which appears over 70 times, means eternal when used in the adjective form.

You can't limit the meaning of the term down to just the second definition because the term applies both to eternal hell and eternal life. To follow your definition would say that eternal life isn't eternal nor is God.
Aionios has come to mean eternal since Jerome translated the Greek scriptures into Latin and decided to translate aionios as both seculorum and as aeternum ...

However the proper meaning of aionios in the mind of early Greek speaking Christians is that which is found in the Septuagint. The word owlam was translated with aionios, and olawm means simply something(such as a time) hidden or concealed, or literally "beyond the horizon".

Owlam Olam Olawm Intro

Aionios Aionion Aionian (http://owlam.com/_wsn/page4.html - broken link)

Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings

According to many Greek scholars, aionios means "of the age" ...

I am certainly aware that many of the modern Greek biblical lexicons define aionios as being able to be translated as eternal, but all the arguments i have found for the reason they do this are based on "argumentum ad ignorantiam". The main argument i have seen is the thayers argument that if the word aionios is applied to God or any other eternal quality then it needs must mean eternal, again this is "argumentum ad ignorantiam"(apeal to negative evidence). However, the eternal God can also be the "God of the ages" or "The Hidden God", i.e aionios, and eternal at the same time.


In my opinion, the strongest proof that aionios was not understood by early eastern native Koine Greek speaking Christians to mean eternal or everlasting or forever, is the fact that the vast majority of the eastern Koine Greek speaking and reading Christians were in fact universalists, while the Western native Latin speaking Christians believed in ET.

It is also of some extreme relevance to note that Emperor Justinian himself did not believe that aionios meant eternal or everlasting, and according to his own letters he desired that the Greek scriptures be edited in order to interpolate a term which would certainly specify eternity within the scriptures, something which the leaders of the church at the time refused to do ...

Quote:
Some centuries, then, after the death of Origen, that great theologian in his own esteem, the Emperor Justinian, directed Mennas, the Patriarch of Constantinople, to call a local council in the year 544 to condemn errors of Origen. Among these errors was the doctrine of universal restoration. Justinian, in his letter to Mennas, presents an elaborate argument against that doctrine among others, and concludes it with a careful statement of the true faith. Here, now, was a call for an unambiguous word to denote eternal, as applied to life and punishment. The emperor, writing in Greek, had his choice of words. What word, then, from the full vocabulary of Greece, did he select? Did he rely on the word aionios as, of itself, sufficient for his purpose? Not at all. As if aware that it could denote simply “pertaining to the world to come,” he prefixes to it a word properly denoting eternal, so that his language is this, “The Holy Church of Christ teaches an endless aionian life to the righteous and endless punishment to the wicked.” Here the word used to denote endless in both cases is ateleutetos. In the case of punishment he omits aionios entirely. To denote the endless life of the righteous he uses the same unambiguous word ateleutetos, but prefixes it to aionios. But when he thus said the Church teaches an endless aionian life to the righteous, did he mean so flat a tautology as an endless endless life? Or did he prefix to the life of the world to come, as used in the creeds, a word that truly denotes eternal?

It deserves, also, particular notice, that, in a deliberate and formal effort to characterize the punishment of the wicked as strictly eternal, he does not rely on or use the word aionios at all, but employs an entirely different word, ateleutetos.



From : History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution: the Creeds the Fathers

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 04-21-2010 at 10:38 PM..
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:57 PM
 
352 posts, read 476,708 times
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I have to go to work, but I'll ask you one question Ironmaw. What sources are you using to support your argument? What evidence do you have regarding the whole conspiracy behind Jerome's translation of the Scripture into Latin? I am curious.
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:35 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,206,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
I have to go to work, but I'll ask you one question Ironmaw. What sources are you using to support your argument? What evidence do you have regarding the whole conspiracy behind Jerome's translation of the Scripture into Latin? I am curious.
I never said anything about a conspiracy ... Though perhaps that is just what it was. All i said was that he chose to translate one word, aionios, with the words aeternum and seculorum ...

The Latin word "aeternum" is were the English word "eternity" derives from, while "seculorum" is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word "aion" and the english words "eon" or "age".

Originally, Jerome was a student and follower of the teachings Origin, but later for some unknown(at least to me) reason renounced Origen and his apocatastasis ... He then turned his ear to the earlier teachings of the pagan converted to Christian Tertulian and to the Manichean influenced teachings of his contemporary Augustine, and under those influences penned the Vulgate ...

Here is a link to a study on the history of universalism in the early church, which deals with the enemies of the doctrine of UR in the early church and their influences and designs against the doctrine of Apocatastasis, and their eventual building up of the doctrine of ET until it finally became orthodox doctrine (usurping the doctrine of UR which was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught among Christians during the first centuries of the early church) in the 7th century.

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:13 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,534 posts, read 31,936,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
So, is your answer that He is not really kind to the evil even though that verse says He is, or that He is being kind when He burns them forever?
I specifically said he is kind, and He will give people every opportunity to accept him as their saviour. However, if they subbornly reject him, they will pay the price and perish. Read the Bible to see what happened to Israel when they rejected Him?

Quote:
Do you think it's heretical if someone lives as a sinner during his/her whole life, and then has a deathbed confession at the very end and goes to heaven? I'm just curious what you believe because many people would think they don't deserve to be "granted" salvation in that case.
No one deserves it, but it will be granted if you accept Christ, be it on you deathbed, or at your 20th birthday party.

Quote:
The next question might not apply to your view, but in my church the question arises "Are they really saved?" For example, my Sunday School teacher said that if she saw someone coming out of a rated-R movie, she would have to wonder if they were "really saved." But if you get where I'm coming from on that, do you think people can believe in Jesus and believe in their hearts that they are really saved, and not be?
Many people think they are saved because they prayed a prayer back in the day, but if you realize that you live in habitual and willful sin, then it is always a good idea to do as the Bible says and examine your faith, and make sure you are saved.

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? (2 Corinthians 13:5-6).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30vSr2qXzis
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:42 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,722,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Many people think they are saved because they prayed a prayer back in the day, but if you realize that you live in habitual and willful sin, then it is always a good idea to do as the Bible says and examine your faith, and make sure you are saved.
I see what you mean about sin, but sometimes people just "backslide" or don't mature in their faith. The part that bothers me about the Baptist church where I'm a member, is that they teach the ABC's of salvation - admit, believe, confess. They also teach once-saved-always-saved. So, if someone admits they are a sinner, believes that Jesus died for their sins and rose again, and they confess their sins, then Jesus is faithful and just to forgive them of their sins, etc., so they are saved and have eternal security. Then, they turn right around and want to know in a couple of years if someone is "really saved." So, if they are not "really saved," then was Jesus not faithful and just to forgive them? Did He say, "No. I won't save you right now. Maybe later." That doesn't make sense.

There's the most precious 16-year-old girl in our church who has CP and is wheelchair-bound. For years I've seen her close her eyes and sometimes lift her hands to the Lord as she worships during the music. She won an award at school for outstanding character. She is an awesome person. She "got saved" a few years ago, and then a couple of weeks ago he got "really saved" because her Sunday School teacher convinced her she didn't really mean it the first time or something. This is nonsense. She has loved and lived for God for years. The SS teacher is making it look like you have to live by a rule book, or have some type of emotion going on all the time, or something. Who knows? Several of our teenagers have gotten "really saved" lately and I think it is damaging to their spiritual growth because it doesn't make sense.

Since God is kind to the unthankful and the evil, as that verse we talked about states, then surely He is kind to the ones who "think" they are saved. In Christianity there are too many "rules" from too many denominations teaching how to be saved. Yes, we need to learn to walk in His ways, love God and our neighbor as ourselves, and live as sinless as possible, but Christ already did the saving. That's why churches can't agree on what it takes to be saved - they don't understand that it's not something we do, but something Christ already did.
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Old 04-22-2010, 10:23 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,411,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is not a contradiction, it is just that you can't comprehend that a loving God would do something like that. Why did loving God drown millions in the flood? Why did loving God tell Joshua and Israel to slaughter countless people in Israel? Why does all powerful God allow anything bad to happen? Why has he hardened the hearts is Jews today? He is a sovereign God and he will do as he pleases, and he made the rules about who will be saved and who will not be saved. What you cannot understand is that he made the rules, and to break them would make him a liar, which is impossible. But of course we are beating the dead horse, because we have been through all this so many times.
Yes we are beating a dead horse, but like BHfT said, your answer doesn't make sense. You can't compare God drowning someone in a flood to be the same as God allowing someone to be tormented forever. Anything bad that happens can always be used for a greater good for all - except for an eternal bad AKA eternal torment in hell.

You contradict yourself when you say God "will give will give people every opportunity to accept him as their saviour" while also suggesting God kills people so they are doomed to hell for eternity, basically never giving them another opportunity to accept Him as savior.

I'm sorry you don't see it. You seem to be hung up on some "rules" that God can't break - it seems you think even though God would like to save everyone, He will just be frustrated forever that He can't.

Be well Finn.
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