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Old 04-22-2010, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Hold on, I think I stashed the Book Of Live in my briefcase somewhere. Let me look for it. LOL (sigh).....
Well the Hebrew thought that God had many books but two of them were The Book of Life and it's opposite, The Book of the Dead.

The book of life was thought to be the recording of all of the righteous. If you messed up God may 'blot you out of the book of life' and so you would perish.

Notice: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

The bookS were opened... ANOTHER book (the book of life) was opened... The dead were judged according to their actions as recorded in the BOOKS.... not the book of life. So that means the book of life has nothing to do with your actions. right?

So why then does Rev. talk about those NOT written in the book of life as being sent to the flames when that would signify death?

Death is already thrown into the lake of fire, so that can't mean that those blotted out are considered NOT written.. just can't make out the name now... but they were written at one time. So who would not have even been written in the book of life?

Someone born without ever having righteousness?

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," - ALL are NOT written in the book of life?

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

Either way you look at it.. ALL men are blotted out or NOT written at all because ALL men have sinned and fall short of righteousness!

Therefore the allegorical "lake of fire" will not hurt those who are striving for righteousness but they will still be salted with fire... the all consuming fire that is God.


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Old 04-22-2010, 11:32 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,585,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Why not just read the rest of it while you are at it:

Rev 20:14-15 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
I always ask people to keep reading after they quote/post that.

Quote:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (Rev 21:1-6)
Taken in chronological order, it appears that the end will be God, all in all.
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I said the Corinthians says you should examine yourself. But of course there is no point in doing that, since everyone is already good to go. Right? Sigh...

PS It is not cool when you try to twist the meaning of other posters words.
Not twisting on purpose if that is what you feel I did, just being lazy and didn't want to type out the whole willful sin part...so I said it more like directly disobeying the law... and here I am typing it anyway so you are right... I should have been more clear. I am sorry.

Examining yourself includes examining those beliefs you hold which don't show the love of God. IMO
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:36 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,725,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It's pretty simple, really. Read the Bible and you'll know what I mean.


The true gospel is simple - Jesus is the Savior of the world.

What is not simple is the confusion caused by the differences in the message of what one needs to do to be saved that is preached in the more than 33,000 different Christian denominations.
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:09 PM
 
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In is interesting how people see things so differently whenever reading the bible.

What did Paul mean when he said that all things are lawful, though not all things are expedient?

What did he mean when he said that he served the law of sin in his flesh, but the law of god with his mind?

What did Paul mean when he said the one who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness?

I believe in order to understand what is being said by the apostles we should always take it back to what Jesus said ...

And the one place that i find Jesus dealing with people who believe that they are righteous and people who know they are sinners is in the parable of the pharisee and the publican ...


Luke 18:9-14
Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


Of the two examples given of men who pray to God, which type are you, all you who claim to believe in God?

Are you the type who believes yourself righteous before God and thanks God for your righteousness, and that you are not like all the sinners in the world around you?

Or are you the one who knows you are as bad as all the sinners in the world around you, and begs for mercy?

Which one is justified and shall be exalted? Which one will be abased?

What about you?

Test yourselves whether or not you are approved.

Do you pass the test? Do you even know what the test really is?
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,651 posts, read 32,108,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
What about you?

Test yourselves whether or not you are approved.

Do you pass the test? Do you even know what the test really is?
Ah, it's Ironmaw back to his favorite game of questioning other people's faith.
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:18 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,216,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Ah, it's Ironmaw back to his favorite game of questioning other people's faith.
Is that your answer?

I don't question anyone's faith.

You are the one who brought up 2 Corinthians 13:5-6 ... Not me.

I am simply clarifying what that test may be ...

Why don't you answer my post fin, instead of just alleging that i am questioning someones faith?
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:25 PM
 
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Maybe this should be in its own thread, but I will post it here for now:


Unraveling the teaching of "Hell"

Its easy to do a study on how the specific word "hell" is used and see that it is not exactly referring to a place of fire and torment, nor is it referring to a place that lasts forever. However one must actually do this study themselves and be open to learning in order to see it.

The English word Hell in the KJV is translated from 4 words: sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus. Many people do not realize this at all, but some people do. In this post I will focus on the words sheol/hades. From scripture we know that the hebrew word "sheol" has the exact same meaning as the greek word "hades":

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [HADES], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

So there we have proof from scripture that sheol and hades are the exact same word. Whatever sheol is, hades is, and vice versa.

A common teaching is that sheol/hades is a place where the wicked are punished in flames until they are thrown into the lake of fire. This teaching arises due to misunderstanding of the parable of the rich man and lazarus (this is a whole separate issue to study in itself). Anyway, given that hades=sheol, we can look at passages in the old testament to see what sheol is and see if it lines up with the common idea of a fiery afterlife.

There are actually 65 places in the OT where the word sheol is used. In the KJV sheol is translated as "grave" 31 times and "hell" 31 times, and "pit" 3 other times. Right here this raises a flag on how the word was translated. Why the vastly different meanings of this very important concept of hell? Surely going to the grave is quite different than going to a place to be tormented forever. Lets look at some of the verses, in the KJV version:


Job 17:3 If I wait, the grave [SHEOL] is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave [SHEOL] those which have sinned.

Psalm 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave [SHEOL].

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave [SHEOL]? Selah.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [SHEOL], whither thou goest.

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave [SHEOL]; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave [SHEOL], I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell
[SHEOL], behold, thou art there



Now remember, the original scriptures didn't use two different words "grave" and "hell". They simply used the word sheol. So to summarize, according to scripture what is sheol?
- it is a place of silence
- it is likened to a "house" where you make your "bed" and "sleep" in "darkness"
- all sinners go into sheol (wouldn't that include everyone?)
- indeed all do go into sheol
- there is no knowledge or wisdom or device in sheol
- those in sheol are DEAD
- people can be redeemed/ransomed from sheol
- sheol will be ultimately destroyed
- God is in SHEOL

These are the facts of scripture.

Now does that sound like the traditional view of a place of conscious fiery eternal torment to you? Does it sound like eternal separation to you? God is even in sheol, as God is everywhere, so no one is separated from God there.

I've only presented a few of the verses on sheol here. These two articles below go through all 65 verses that use the word sheol in detail. When taken together, the conclusion is obvious: those who go to sheol are DEAD, as in unconscious, like they are sleeping - NOT alive. Yet these scriptures also reassure us that sheol will not have victory - people can be redeemed from sheol, and sheol will ultimately be destroyed.

Read this as a study aid if you are open to learning:
L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 16A
L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 16B

Last edited by legoman; 04-22-2010 at 12:42 PM..
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:34 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,216,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I specifically said he is kind, and He will give people every opportunity to accept him as their saviour. However, if they subbornly reject him, they will pay the price and perish. Read the Bible to see what happened to Israel when they rejected Him?



No one deserves it, but it will be granted if you accept Christ, be it on you deathbed, or at your 20th birthday party.



Many people think they are saved because they prayed a prayer back in the day, but if you realize that you live in habitual and willful sin, then it is always a good idea to do as the Bible says and examine your faith, and make sure you are saved.

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? (2 Corinthians 13:5-6).


YouTube - Examine Yourself 4 Minute Compilation by Paul Washer

I realize you may not want to answer my last post ... That's OK.

But i want to answer this post ... Specifically this part ...

You wrote ...

Quote:
I specifically said he is kind, and He will give people every opportunity to accept him as their saviour. However, if they subbornly reject him, they will pay the price and perish. Read the Bible to see what happened to Israel when they rejected Him?
Well, lets see what the scriptures have to say about Gods judgment on Israel, and his kindness in this regard ...

Quote:
Romans 11

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:


“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

9 And David says:


“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
God bound Israel to disobedience and unbelief so that he might have mercy on ALL. That is how he is Kind to the wicked and the unthankful ... He cast them (Israel) off (temporarily) to graft us in ... Do you think too highly of yourself, or don't you know that they are the root that bares us, the wild branches which have been grafted in? Do you boast against the original branches?

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 04-22-2010 at 12:52 PM..
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:41 PM
 
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So as seen above, sheol, which is called hades in the greek, is not a place of eternal torment in fire. Probably the simplest description is to call it the resting place of the dead. If you honestly study out all 65 verses on sheol you will see it.

However, the word "hell" in the KJV is also translated from the word "gehenna". What is gehenna? It is referring to the literal place of the Valley of Hinnom where garbage and dead bodies of criminals were burned up. Some would say this symolizes the eternal hell of the after life. But this one verse blows that idea to smithereens.

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [GEHENNA].

This passage is talking about different forms of judgment that believers may expect. There is a problem here:

1. If one says "Raca" (which is a very bad insult) to his brother, he is in danger of judgment in front of the council (the council of the sanhedrin). I'm sure this was a severe judgment, but certainly not an eternal consequence.

2. But notice, if one calls someone a fool "Thou fool" (which is also an insult, possibly as bad as "Raca"), they are in danger of HELLFIRE (translated from the word GEHENNA).

So one insult deserves perhaps a slap on the wrist from the local courts, while another insult deserves eternal torment in fire? Do you really think that's what "gehenna" means? The answer is: no, of course that is not what gehenna means. Gehenna is just describing another form of judgment that was common in those days for criminals. Criminals were not given a proper burial, instead there body was just burned up in the garbage dump. That was their judgement.

You can look at the other places Jesus used the word gehenna (which is mistranslated as "hell"), and you will see it is used as a metaphor for judgment. Judgment can indeed be a great trial, but it is not eternal, and certainly eternal torment in fire is not deserved for calling someone a fool. If that were so, just about everyone on this forum is going to hell for calling another person a fool.

Read this for more on God's gehenna judgment:
GEHENNA FIRE JUDGMENT

Actually its probably beneficial if you read the rest of part 16 on bible-truths.com first (in the middle of the page - The Lake of Fire series).
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