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Old 04-22-2010, 12:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
So as seen above, sheol, which is called hades in the greek, is not a place of eternal torment in fire. Probably the simplest description is to call it the resting place of the dead. If you honestly study out all 65 verses on sheol you will see it.

However, the word "hell" in the KJV is also translated from the word "gehenna". What is gehenna? It is referring to the literal place of the Valley of Hinnom where garbage and dead bodies of criminals were burned up. Some would say this symolizes the eternal hell of the after life. But this one verse blows that idea to smithereens.

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [GEHENNA].

This passage is talking about different forms of judgment that believers may expect. There is a problem here:

1. If one says "Raca" (which is a very bad insult) to his brother, he is in danger of judgment in front of the council (the council of the sanhedrin). I'm sure this was a severe judgment, but certainly not an eternal consequence.

2. But notice, if one calls someone a fool "Thou fool" (which is also an insult, possibly as bad as "Raca"), they are in danger of HELLFIRE (translated from the word GEHENNA).

So one insult deserves perhaps a slap on the wrist from the local courts, while another insult deserves eternal torment in fire? Do you really think that's what "gehenna" means? The answer is: no, of course that is not what gehenna means. Gehenna is just describing another form of judgment that was common in those days for criminals. Criminals were not given a proper burial, instead there body was just burned up in the garbage dump. That was their judgement.

You can look at the other places Jesus used the word gehenna (which is mistranslated as "hell"), and you will see it is used as a metaphor for judgment. Judgment can indeed be a great trial, but it is not eternal, and certainly eternal torment in fire is not deserved for calling someone a fool. If that were so, just about everyone on this forum is going to hell for calling another person a fool.

Read this for more on God's gehenna judgment:
GEHENNA FIRE JUDGMENT

Actually its probably beneficial if you read the rest of part 16 on bible-truths.com first (in the middle of the page - The Lake of Fire series).

It is interesting to note that the penitent thief likely received the judgment of hellfire(Gehenna), being a criminal, his body was likely cast into the fires of Gehenna ... But yet he was also forgiven by Christ and promised to be with him in paradise.
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,712 posts, read 32,154,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
... Do you think too highly of yourself, or don't you know that they are the root that bares us, the wild branches which have been grafted in? Do you boast against the original branches?
Do I think too highly of myself? Do I boast?

Can you make one post without some kind of judgement of others?
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:32 PM
 
Location: PA
45 posts, read 40,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I didn't see a response to this question so I will post one:

Rev. 20:12-13 - And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

22:12 - "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

Jeremiah 17:10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

There are several OT passages that have similar language to the verses you are asking about in Rev. but I chose this one from Jeremiah because it shows that the punishment (and rewards) are according to the results of his deeds. I don't think there is a mass judgment but that we reap what we sow here and now in this life as a result of our actions.

Since God is not bound by time it can be that all these things in Revelation happen simultaneously or not.. I don't know, but my own study has shown that it is not how we think it is.

Daniel 7:14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

I believe that all people are under the authority of God whether they realize it or not. This means that all peoples are affected by his kingdom and as such, universal salvation makes the most sense given the rest of the scripture... IMO.
Thanks for responding. I guess my question was in response to someone saying a Universalist (sorry for the wrong word there, I'm learning) would not believe or use the word accordingly. I should have quoted the post before, I'm terribly sorry. I guess they were disagreeing with the part about accordingly. I just jumped back in here after a long bit and didn't go back and look at the original post. Sorry.
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:32 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,220,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Do I think too highly of myself? Do I boast?

Can you make one post without some kind of judgement of others?
How is my asking you a question a judgment?

I am simply asking you to consider the question you posed and the implications of it.

You wrote ...

Quote:
I specifically said he is kind, and He will give people every opportunity to accept him as their saviour. However, if they subbornly reject him, they will pay the price and perish. Read the Bible to see what happened to Israel when they rejected Him?
Yet the bible says that Israel rejected Christ because God committed them to disobedience so that he might have mercy on all ...

So is it true that Israel has "perished" as you say, and those who did not believe on Christ and were destroyed in the fiery judgments of Israel in 70 AD are being punished in everlasting hell right now and will not be saved?

If that is the case then why did Paul say "all Israel shall be saved"?

Can you not simply answer the question?

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 04-22-2010 at 01:46 PM..
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,712 posts, read 32,154,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
So is it true that Israel has "perished" as you say,
No, I didn't say Israel perished. I said "look at what happend to Israel". Yes, I also mentioned that non-believers WILL perirish, but I never said Israel has perished.

Enough of this word twisting!
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:48 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,220,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, I didn't say Israel perished. I said "look at what happend to Israel". Yes, I also mentioned that non-believers WILL perirish, but I never said Israel has perished.

Enough of this word twisting!
I am not twisting your words sir ... You plainly stated "if they subbornly reject him, they will pay the price and perish." and "Read the Bible to see what happened to Israel when they rejected Him?"

You said if someone stubbornly rejected Christ they will pay the price and perish, and then you gave an example from the bible of what happened to Israel who rejected Christ. Thus you implied Israel paid the price and perished because they stubbornly rejected Christ. I do not have to twist your words, they are clear ...

So then, those of Israel who rejected Christ and did not believe will not perish, but anyone else who does not believe will perish ... Is that what you are saying?

So is God a respecter of persons then? That he should forgive Israel who did not believe, yet not others?

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 04-22-2010 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 04-22-2010, 02:13 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,426,370 times
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I started a new thread to discuss the scriptural definition/meaning of "hell". Please take comments about my above two posts over there.

What is "Hell" according to the scriptures

Carry on...
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,712 posts, read 32,154,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I do not have to twist your words, they are clear ...
It would have been clear if I had actually said Israel perished, but I didn't say that. To say such thing would not make any sense because Israel exists today.

I said non-believers WILL perish (future tense), as told in the Bible over and over again, and I said "look at what happened to Israel when they disobeyed" (past tense). The Bible is full of examples of how Israel suffered as a consequence of their disobedience: they suffered famine, defeat, exile, death and hardening of their hearts.

Don't assume what people are saying, and don't try to fill in the blanks with your own conclusions. So far you have been wrong with every assumption.
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,584,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
if they subbornly reject him, they will pay the price and perish. Read the Bible to see what happened to Israel when they rejected Him?
Finn, you clearly put the two ideas together. If someone misunderstood what you meant then just clarify - but it took no twisting of words for IM1776 arrive at their conclusion. The point you made about Israel supports UR.
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Old 04-22-2010, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,712 posts, read 32,154,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Finn, you clearly put the two ideas together. If someone misunderstood what you meant then just clarify - but it took no twisting of words for IM1776 arrive at their conclusion. The point you made about Israel supports UR.
I have clarified it several times already, yet the word twisting continues.
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