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Old 04-23-2010, 08:13 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 2,099,931 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
We can never be like God.

1 out of those 30000 denominations is correct.
Any denomination that claims to be the only one that is right, is the first one checked off the list. No one denomination is right about everything.

I didn't say anything about being like God. However:

It is God’s plan for each of us that we “be conformed to the likeness of his Son” (Romans 8:29).

Even in this life, we “are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory” (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Paul labored with the Galatians “until Christ is formed in you” (Galatians 4:19).

He told the Ephesians that our goal is “attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13).

In Christ, we have a new identity and a new purpose for living. The new self is “to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:22-24).
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:14 PM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,079,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Moderator cut: insult

Whats with all the insults? Unfortunately I don't know what it said before it was modded, so I don't know if I should be offended by a generic "mod insult"

Quote:
Let's see wehat the scripture says!

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.............
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The FINAL AGE right there for YOU! NH and E...it ends there and this state continues on FOREVER, FOR AGES AND AGES, ALWAYS.
There is another whole chapter and a half beyond what you quoted above.

The gates of the city are never closed.

The last part of revelations tells us:

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Anyone who is thirsty can come take of the water of life freely. No expiration on that offer. Who is "thirsty"? Certainly those who without the water of life (Christ).

But that is still not "the end". 1 Cor 15:22-28 goes beyond what is described in revelations. And of course we have the overriding proviso that God will have all men to be saved and is the savior of all men, but we've been over that before. You don't believe those scriptures either.
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,399,789 times
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Legoman,

No one said there is an expiration on the offer.
1 Cor 15 does not go beyond it. 1 Cor 15 is expanded in Rev 20 in the resurrection of the dead, precisely what Paul was referring to.
Then comes the New Heaven and Earth....where there is SIN!
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Legoman,

Then comes the New Heaven and Earth....where there is SIN!
I don't really get what your point is here.

Certainly those outside the gates are still sinners (the dogs - sorcerers, murderers, etc) they are not yet in new Jerusalem. But when they come to Christ they will enter and they will no longer be sinners because they will have been converted. When the last one goes through the gates and comes to Christ, then there will be no more sin.

This is all spiritual of course, its not talking about literal gates and a literal city (I'm sure you realize this).

[Aside: To be honest I sometimes wonder if Revelations is describing our life right now. Some are in the lake of fire right now while others are in the new city right now. (spiritually speaking of course). Just a theory, that I'm not sure on.]

Regardless, I don't see what your point is about there still being sinners - like I said they are outside the gates. With all due respect - so what?
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Context defines the passage. Gehenna was a real place, we all attest to that, but will the wicked be completely destroyed as they were in gehenna? Christ answers us:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (gehenna)
Christ did not answer that God WILL kill the body and soul, only that He is ABLE to. We all believe that He is able to do whatever He wants to do, and thankfully, He wants all to be saved.
Bill Cosby: My father established our relationship when I was seven years old. He looked at me and said, "You know, I brought you in this world, and I can take you out. And it don't make no difference to me, I'll make another one look just like you."

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Old 04-23-2010, 08:25 PM
 
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Also, I would appreciate it if you (sciota) would acknowledge that faith comes from God as scripture plainly shows.
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:32 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,713,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Ironmaw,

The second death is an action, not a state of being. What is a state of being, is the judicial reprecussions of the second death. Those in Covenant under God (Death and Hades) not found written in the book of Life, are thrown into the lake of fire where Satan and his minions are. But since you believe that Satan and his minions will be reconciled, without any scriptural proof to support this, is beyond me...but that's ok. I say all is not all, and you say damnation is temporary.
So be it...for now.
We die to sin when we are born again and are renewed in Christ. That is a state of being as well ... I understand the second death to be a similar state of being. The consuming fire of Gods wrath against sin and the works of the devil which burns away the corruptible sin nature and renews and heals one, and then finally guides us through the wilderness to the promised land.

My scriptural evidence of UR, including the fallen Angels, is ample enough ...

Here is a taste ...

Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Col 1:16 & 1:20
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

...

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


Quote:
Context defines the passage. Gehenna was a real place, we all attest to that, but will the wicked be completely destroyed as they were in gehenna? Christ answers us:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (gehenna)
"Fear him which is able" ... No one is arguing whether or not God is able to destroy the body and the soul, the question is will he?


1Ti 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


That verse tells us what God will do, regardless of what he is able to do.

So no i don't believe they will be completely destroyed in Gehenna ...

Fire is a symbol of transformation and purification, God makes one vessel to wrath and one to mercy, one to dishonor and one to honor, but he makes them out of the same lump of clay. We were all once vessels of wrath, and many still are ...



Quote:
These are euphemisms, allegories, pictures of what was to come for those in wicked rebellion. Just as the Jews understood the destructive nature of Gehenna, it was a clear reminder of the destination for those who reject Him, Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Quote:
Do you believe Salvation is only beneficial to those that profess in Christ?
Every tongue shall confess/profess Christ in the end ...

Quote:
Or do you believe that everyone is already saved, even if they don't profess their faith in Christ?
Every tongue shall Confess that Christ is lord.


Quote:
I still am looking for Post Mortem redemption of the soul....anyone?
This is an argument purely built on argumentum ad ignorantiam (Or appeal to ignorance or negative evidence) ... There isn't any hard scriptural evidence of "no chance of redemption postmortem" ...

However there are scriptures which can be seen teaching redemption postmortem ...

Such as ...

1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

You simply will not accept it as such.
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:37 PM
 
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Furthermore, in relation to Matt 10:28:

God kills and God makes alive.
God is able to save that which is destroyed.
In fact Jesus came to save the lost/destroyed - it is the same greek word for both "lost/lose" and "destroy" (apollymi).

Being destroyed is the perfect state to be saved from.
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Legoman,

No one said there is an expiration on the offer.
1 Cor 15 does not go beyond it. 1 Cor 15 is expanded in Rev 20 in the resurrection of the dead, precisely what Paul was referring to.
Then comes the New Heaven and Earth....where there is SIN!
If there is sin, then there is a curse, and there are tears, and pain and suffering ... Etc.

Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:3
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:


Christ will eventuall completely destroy all the works of the devil, and that means sin ...
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:58 PM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,079,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
If there is sin, then there is a curse, and there are tears, and pain and suffering ... Etc.

Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:3
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:


Christ will eventuall completely destroy all the works of the devil, and that means sin ...
Exactly! Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. I don't think He will fail, do you?

There will be no more curse - like those "accursed" who are thrown into the eonian fire - will they still be "accursed" if there is no more curse?
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