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Old 04-23-2010, 02:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
By the very definition of the word "Trinity" there can be only 3 parts So no, people in heaven don't become God.

Isaiah 48:16 Come near unto Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and His Spirit, hath sent Me.”

Or how about Matthew 3:17, where you have Jesus being baptized, the Spirit descending like a dove and the Father’s voice saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” All of them there, all of them present at the same time at the same scene.

Thanks for the reply, I respect your beliefs, I just do not see what you have wrote showing scripture meaning "God" "God the son" "God the Holy Spirit".

Perhaps you could clarify with the scriptures that make those statements. If you believe the scripture you gave means that, I respect that is your answer and will not question you any further about it.
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:25 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,573,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherologist View Post
I have a three year old boxer whom I'm pretty sure has the ability to sin.
My 16 month old Bordeaux rebels, but according to records about his breed, it's a part of his nature.




There's another book about our "breed" that tells us rebellion is part of our nature - so if I'm forgiven, I must forgive him too.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1626891944278&id=4f643089cdfd7573 45bf18bcbdef3665&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.christianshi rts.us%2fchristian_tshirts%2fOne_Savior_Lg.jpg (broken link)
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,404,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Yup. Love the guy.



Perhaps June needs to acquire a divine diving presence?



Dyer's quote reminded June of this: "Yahweh" = "I Am Who I Am."



Perhaps love could qualify, if we truly knew what it was, and how to.



Could the 'pure act of loving someone' be a god? In June's opinion, no. Perhaps the closest her mind could come to accepting that (if a god existed) would be to say that perhaps it is within the 'pure act of loving someone' (and/or being loved by someone) that one could somehow perceive glimpses of the manifestation of 'god.' (If one existed.)



June has the feeling that man's ability to create is not merely limited to brain activity/functioning or applied/learned knowledge and technique. It has to come from somewhere else, as well, co-mingled with a number of factors from within...



June does not know what an "odd theist" is, but she is willing to bet that you are no more of an odd theist than she is an odd atheist. (Although she is!)

You may think of yourself as being odd, but you came very close to getting --in part-- what June had meant by experiential union/unison.


Take gentle Friday care.
Thanks for the response, some great food for thought...
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
My response is better late than never, I guess ...



Keep in mind that all atheists have in common is a lack of beliefs in gods. You'll get lots of different answers on this from different atheists, so don't take what I say as gospel (so to speak).



If you're asking if many atheists have what has been known as a "god shaped hole" in their lives in general I'd say no. There's not some yearning to fill a void - gods are just something someone else believes in that you really don't think about unless one of those believers makes a fuss about it.

There are lots of things in the world that are impressive, awe inspiring, whatever, but there's no real motivation to worship them, pray to them for guidance or anything like that. Just an appreciation that they're interesting.

But there are religious people who don't believe in gods (or think they are irrelevant) so it's not like people are just avoiding gods to keep out of religions. Along the same lines, I think you'll find atheists are more likely to be that way because they have no reason to include a god, not that they have motivation to keep gods out - if that makes any sense.
Thanks for the response. I guess I wasn't thinking of the traditional definition of God but more of a life force. I grew up Christian but my grandmother is an atheist (we don't talk about religion around her even though I agree with most of what she says, except her Sylvia Brown obsession!)

Anyway, I was more trying to see if the atheist sees a pattern in nature that could be said to have the attributes of a god not that an actual being exists but take Google for example... Google fits the qualifications for a god quite nicely... in fact, back in the 1st century I am sure had they known about Google they would have worshiped it!... I don't worship God in the traditional christian sense, but I do see there is a life force that animates flesh and bone so I call that life force 'God' for lack of a more fitting term.

I also believe there is nothing after this life (no pearly gates in the clouds or burning pits of fire in middle earth). We simply return to that from which we came... whatever that may be.

So I guess I wanted to know if the atheist, although they don't worship/acknowledge imaginary beings, thinks there is a life force that has an unexplainable origin which animates flesh and bone.

Does that make any sense?

Trying to explain my question has left me wondering what it was I wanted to ask in the first place...
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Old 04-23-2010, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I believe we can be "perfect in Christ" here on earth. When we enter into a covenant relationship with Him (I believe this happens at baptism), we become a new creature, not perfect on our own, but perfect through Him. It's as if someone who was completely broke and in debt up to his eyeballs set up a joint bank account with someone who had literally unlimited funds. As a result of that joint account, the person who went into it poor would now have all the wealth he could ever want or need. It wouldn't have it on his own, but through the relationship with his co-account owner. I see our being able to achieve perfection here on earth as being kind of like that. Once we are in Heaven, I think it's possible to achieve perfection on our own, but I don't think everybody will do so. Everyone doesn't have the desire to put forth the effort. And it will take effort. Nothing worth having doesn't take effort.
That is close to what I believe except the baptism part. I don't see how a physical washing does anything for God, but it does much for some as a public showing and nothing for others. I say.. to each his own.

Do you also see that this perfection may not be what we think it is? I have a dream that my 10 year old will become a doctor/lawyer (to support me when I am old LOL) but if she becomes a teacher will she still be perfect in my eyes? Yep! I just think we are too strict on what being perfect entails. As long as my daughter is happy, then to me she is perfect. That is why I don't think flawless is synonymous with perfect. We all will have flaws (not that being a teacher is a flaw but not supporting mom in her old age is ) but I believe we can achieve that perfection (eternal life) on earth and that it has nothing to do with any afterlife.

I think some Christians never strive for perfection because they feel it is an impossible task due to the thinking that one must be flawless in order to be perfect. I don't see that as the case. I can be perfect in God's eyes and still be seriously flawed...

And some will never see 'life with abundance' because they don't put forth the effort.. but again I don't see this as continuing into any afterlife.

Thanks for the response!
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Old 04-23-2010, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
That is close to what I believe except the baptism part. I don't see how a physical washing does anything for God, but it does much for some as a public showing and nothing for others. I say.. to each his own.
I don't believe a physical washing does anything for God either, but it's not God who has been commanded to be baptized. On the other hand, Christ was pretty insistent that He be baptized, even though He obviously did not need to be cleansed from sin. To my way of thinking, that says volumes. He told John that He needed to be baptized "to fulfill all righteousness." I've heard varying explanations of what that phrase actually means, but taking it in the simplest, most straightfoward way it can be interpreted (which is what I tend to do), it seems to be saying, "to do everything that is righteous." Since there are several places in the scriptures in which He mentions that He does nothing but what His Father has commanded. So, if Jesus was baptized for no other reason than to be obedience (i.e. to do what His Father deemed necessary to fulfil all righteousness) and if He commanded His followers to be baptized, I don't really understand how we can conclude that it's not really necessary. While our sins may not literally be washed away like dirt is washed off our skin when we bathe, how can we justify saying, "Well, it doesn't really seem necessary to me, so I'm not going to do it"?

Quote:
Do you also see that this perfection may not be what we think it is?
I honestly wouldn't even venture a guess as to what this means except to say that Jesus commanded us to "be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." So to me, it means that we should try to emulate Jesus to the degree possible. If He is a perfect reflection of His Father's perfection, and we were to emulate Him, we'd be on our way towards being perfect, whatever it ultimately turns out to mean.

Quote:
I have a dream that my 10 year old will become a doctor/lawyer (to support me when I am old LOL) but if she becomes a teacher will she still be perfect in my eyes? Yep! I just think we are too strict on what being perfect entails. As long as my daughter is happy, then to me she is perfect. That is why I don't think flawless is synonymous with perfect. We all will have flaws (not that being a teacher is a flaw but not supporting mom in her old age is ) but I believe we can achieve that perfection (eternal life) on earth and that it has nothing to do with any afterlife.
I have a dream that my 30-year old son will end up being able to support himself in his old age!
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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I have a question for everybody, based on something jimmiej said, which was:

Quote:
Based on God's character, I cannot believe He would not extend grace to a unbaptized believer.
I feel pretty strongly that anyone who denies that baptism is necessary (as opposed to being something we should do but don't actually need to do) is using essentially the same reasoning jimmiej is doing. If you do not believe that baptism is essential for salvation, would you say that it is for the same reason jimmiej gave -- that it seems incompatible with a just God to deny grace to an unbaptized believer? Or can you actually point to scripture that implies that baptism is optional?
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,404,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I don't believe a physical washing does anything for God either, but it's not God who has been commanded to be baptized. On the other hand, Christ was pretty insistent that He be baptized, even though He obviously did not need to be cleansed from sin. To my way of thinking, that says volumes. He told John that He needed to be baptized "to fulfill all righteousness." I've heard varying explanations of what that phrase actually means, but taking it in the simplest, most straightfoward way it can be interpreted (which is what I tend to do), it seems to be saying, "to do everything that is righteous." Since there are several places in the scriptures in which He mentions that He does nothing but what His Father has commanded. So, if Jesus was baptized for no other reason than to be obedience (i.e. to do what His Father deemed necessary to fulfil all righteousness) and if He commanded His followers to be baptized, I don't really understand how we can conclude that it's not really necessary. While our sins may not literally be washed away like dirt is washed off our skin when we bathe, how can we justify saying, "Well, it doesn't really seem necessary to me, so I'm not going to do it"?
I really don't think it is necessary. The reason is that the period we are talking about was all about rituals. In order to proclaim the gospel amongst hostile Jews this may have been necessary but we are not in that time anymore.

The other reason is because of the fact that public shows of faith are unnecessary, IMO.

Matt 6:1 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

Matt. 23:5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;

So while it may benefit some people to show their decision to live in God's ways publicly, I think it is a benefit to them not a requirement by God.

Quote:
I have a dream that my 30-year old son will end up being able to support himself in his old age!
Yikes... my oldest is 17 and already away more than home... I hope that is a good sign.
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Old 04-23-2010, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,294 posts, read 20,946,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I really don't think it is necessary. The reason is that the period we are talking about was all about rituals. In order to proclaim the gospel amongst hostile Jews this may have been necessary but we are not in that time anymore.
And you have a LOT of company in your camp. It makes me wonder, though, why so many people have such a negative view of ritual. I know the Catholics don't, but almost all Protestants do. Personally, I believe there is a time and a place for ritual. I don't believe there is any point of ritual for ritual's sake or ritual done as a matter of pomp and circumstance. But rituals are generally symbolic and when their symbolism teaches us something or serves to strengthen our commitment to someone or something, I think there can be value in them. I see this as being one of the reasons for baptism. It cements in our minds the covenant we have entered into with our Savior. The second reason I see for baptism is simple obedience to what we were told we must do.

Quote:
The other reason is because of the fact that public shows of faith are unnecessary, IMO.

So while it may benefit some people to show their decision to live in God's ways publicly, I think it is a benefit to them not a requirement by God.
It seems to me that it will be evident to people soon enough whether someone is living in God's ways, so I don't see baptism as necessary from that perspective.

Quote:
Yikes... my oldest is 17 and already away more than home... I hope that is a good sign.
Oh, my son has been out of the house for years. It's just that he is always in debt, lives hand to mouth, and has no real prospects for the future. (If he were religious, he'd have made a good Apostle. He doesn't "take... thought for [his] life, what [he] shall eat, or what [he] shall drink; nor yet for [his] body, what [he] shall put on.") In real life, one kind of has to.
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I have a dream that my 10 year old will become a doctor/lawyer (to support me when I am old LOL) but if she becomes a teacher will she still be perfect in my eyes? Yep!
Hey if there were no teachers, no one could become a doctor or lawyer!

We are all members of the body, but doing different functions important for the whole. Is the foot more important than the knees? Is the belly button less important than the funny bone?
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