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Old 04-29-2010, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,965,943 times
Reputation: 10001

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
So if Mormons or Catholics, for example, just believed Jesus was a good man but not God's son, I would think that could be a cult, but that's not the case obviously.
Whew! I absolutely believe that Jesus was God's Son and that He died for our sins!

Quote:
I also believe it's a cult if it's mind control, etc., like you said. If they are killing themselves to be hoisted up by the mother ship, that's the best example of a cult, IMO.
I'm glad you qualified that! I think the word "cult" is a perfectly legitimate one but I also think it's overused by people who slap it on any group they don't like. Like you said, it's the ones who are killing themselves to be hoisted up by the mother ship or drinking cyanide-laced kool-aid.
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,408,340 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Oh boy! Oh boy! Oh boy! Yup, you ARE confused!

"The Latter-day Saints" are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They are also called "Mormons" because of their belief in a volume of scripture known as "The Book of Mormon." (There is no such thing as "the Mormon Church;" people looking it up in the phone book find it very frustrating when they can't find the listing.) We generally prefer to be called Latter-day Saints or LDS for short, but very few of us object to being called Mormons. (We do get rather irate, though, when the middle 'm' in "Mormon" is intentionally dropped. ) The Jehovah's Witnesses (also called JWs) are a different denomination entirely. Actually, both groups go door to door, but the Latter-day Saints do so less frequently than they used to, instead relying on referrals from members of the Church whose friends have asked them to have the missionaries call on them.

One other point worth making: When you hear about "Mormon polygamists," please be aware that they are not members of our Church. They belong to one of several small groups that have broken off of our Church over the years. We do not consider them to be members of our Church any more than Catholics consider Protestants to be members of their Church. Oh, and by the way... Latter-day Saint men can have only one wife.
Ok Thanks alot! I was very confused. I think I got it confused because I had a friend who was JW growing up and an LDS across from my house so in my youth I must've put them together.

So Smith is JW? and who wrote the book of Mormon?

(I almost typo'd that without the 2nd 'm'... so I had to tell and LOL.)
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,965,943 times
Reputation: 10001
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Ok Thanks alot! I was very confused. I think I got it confused because I had a friend who was JW growing up and an LDS across from my house so in my youth I must've put them together.
A lot of people get them mixed up. I think it's because (a) they both reject the doctrine of the Trinity, at least as it is defined in the 4th and 5th century Creeds, and because (b) they both proselytize. Other than that, they don't have a great deal in common.

Quote:
So Smith is JW? and who wrote the book of Mormon?
No, Joseph Smith was the founder of Mormonism, and the translator of the Book of Mormon. Charles Taze Russell was the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Quote:
(I almost typo'd that without the 2nd 'm'... so I had to tell and LOL.)
I'll only let you get away with that one once.
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,408,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
A lot of people get them mixed up. I think it's because (a) they both reject the doctrine of the Trinity, at least as it is defined in the 4th and 5th century Creeds, and because (b) they both proselytize. Other than that, they don't have a great deal in common.

No, Joseph Smith was the founder of Mormonism. Charles Taze Russell was the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith.

I'll only let you get away with that one once.
OK ok.. now I get it... so it was LDS that came to my house ...

Gee, I really should pay attention more instead of talking so much!

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Old 04-29-2010, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,965,943 times
Reputation: 10001
I have a question about preterism and futurism. It's funny but I have been participating on religious discussion forums for 6 to 8 years now and this forum is the first place I have ever heard these terms used. Could someone explain them to me, so I can figure out where my beliefs fit in. And dumb it down, please. I won't be offended.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:02 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,766,924 times
Reputation: 58199
How I understand it is that preterists believe that Jesus already returned in 70 AD and that all of what is in Revelation has already come to pass. Futurists, of course, believe that Jesus' return is still pending and that Revelation is about the future, not past.

A preterist would have to explain it any further than that....where's Meerkat?
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:05 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,579,456 times
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I got involved with a bunch of spiritualists, I guess. Looking at the prophecies of the NT (both Jesus' and John's), they can reflect the stages of our lives as we grow in the knowledge of Him. This is easy to see when you look at the messages to the seven churches in Revelation, imo.

That's of course looking at them as spiritual events, and not primarily natural. I do believe that things are worked out in the natural realm, but they are first done in the spirit.
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,408,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I have a question about preterism and futurism. It's funny but I have been participating on religious discussion forums for 6 to 8 years now and this forum is the first place I have ever heard these terms used. Could someone explain them to me, so I can figure out where my beliefs fit in. And dumb it down, please. I won't be offended.
Preterist's believe that the NT was written to specific living people and the events foretold in it were to happen within the generation that Jesus spoke to. Therefore Revelation was written to specific churches who read and acted on the information contained within. The destruction of Jerusalem ended the Pharisaical sect. and the animal sacrificing of Judaism which was not the intent of God in the first place as it was the archaic way the patriarchs absolved sin.

So the preterist view is that these things surely happened during the generation of those it was first communicated to.

However there are several types of Preterist's and even then those labels mean little to nothing. Perhaps some of you have witnessed debates between Sciotamicks and I... and we both claim to be Full Preterists and yet disagree about some things.

Here are the basics of the several types which are from my understanding:

Partial Preterists - They believe that some things were fulfilled in 70AD but there is still the physical return of Christ to come. There is some leeway about what exactly is yet to come and what has already taken place.

Full Preterists - They believe that all things were fulfilled in 70AD. There is some leeway as to how the New Heavens and New Earth played out but generally they agree that we are now in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Hyper Preterists- They believe that all things were/are spiritual and only the destruction of the temple foretold by Jesus was a physical event. (this one is often lumped together with Full preterists)

I think that is how it is but I am none of these entirely (LOL how confusing is that?) because I will also include some of the events all the way until the Jewish Revolt led by the false messiah in 135AD, but I do believe all things have been fulfilled regardless of how long that took and the majority took place in the generation of those Jesus spoke to. I am believer in Preterist Universalism which is that Christ's action in his second coming (in 70AD) brought salvation to all. The New Heavens and New Earth are spiritual states where all people will come to the knowledge of God and began in 70AD after the 40 years of wandering (working out salvation) just as the story of Moses delivering the captives in Egypt.

These three definitions are by no means accurate which I readily admit but at least you can get a general idea of the thought of the preterist and my belief.

Any Questions? sorry I couldn't explain it better.
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,965,943 times
Reputation: 10001
Wow! That is totally new stuff to me! How could I have been involved in discussions like this for as long as I have and not have ever even heard those terms before? I'm amazed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Preterist's believe that the NT was written to specific living people and the events foretold in it were to happen within the generation that Jesus spoke to. Therefore Revelation was written to specific churches who read and acted on the information contained within. The destruction of Jerusalem ended the Pharisaical sect. and the animal sacrificing of Judaism which was not the intent of God in the first place as it was the archaic way the patriarchs absolved sin.

So the preterist view is that these things surely happened during the generation of those it was first communicated to.

However there are several types of Preterist's and even then those labels mean little to nothing. Perhaps some of you have witnessed debates between Sciotamicks and I... and we both claim to be Full Preterists and yet disagree about some things.

Here are the basics of the several types which are from my understanding:

Partial Preterists - They believe that some things were fulfilled in 70AD but there is still the physical return of Christ to come. There is some leeway about what exactly is yet to come and what has already taken place.

Full Preterists - They believe that all things were fulfilled in 70AD. There is some leeway as to how the New Heavens and New Earth played out but generally they agree that we are now in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Hyper Preterists- They believe that all things were/are spiritual and only the destruction of the temple foretold by Jesus was a physical event. (this one is often lumped together with Full preterists)

I think that is how it is but I am none of these entirely (LOL how confusing is that?) because I will also include some of the events all the way until the Jewish Revolt led by the false messiah in 135AD, but I do believe all things have been fulfilled regardless of how long that took and the majority took place in the generation of those Jesus spoke to. I am believer in Preterist Universalism which is that Christ's action in his second coming (in 70AD) brought salvation to all. The New Heavens and New Earth are spiritual states where all people will come to the knowledge of God and began in 70AD after the 40 years of wandering (working out salvation) just as the story of Moses delivering the captives in Egypt.

These three definitions are by no means accurate which I readily admit but at least you can get a general idea of the thought of the preterist and my belief.

Any Questions? sorry I couldn't explain it better.
Now it's my turn to be confused. If the new Heaven and the new Earth are here right now, what does that really mean? I hope you're not going to tell me that this is as good as it's going to get! People are still suffering and dying and no one has been resurrected. We're still separated from God and from our deceased loved ones. I am very, very confused.
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:19 PM
 
3,584 posts, read 462,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Wow! That is totally new stuff to me! How could I have been involved in discussions like this for as long as I have and not have ever even heard those terms before? I'm amazed.

Now it's my turn to be confused. If the new Heaven and the new Earth are here right now, what does that really mean? I hope you're not going to tell me that this is as good as it's going to get! People are still suffering and dying and no one has been resurrected. We're still separated from God and from our deceased loved ones. I am very, very confused.
Katzpur..

Sciotamicks has started a thread wanting peoples views on reconciliation and the new heavens and earth.

This is a post that I put there

Quote:
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

What it seems to me there are physical things and spiritual things, I believe there is a national level and an individual, For Judaism the old heavens and earth are past and are no more, physical Israel is gone, Revelation on the physical level is complete, however on a spiritual level it is continuing, the elect are being gathered, the priests and kings have a purpose to proclaim the salvation to the world --- It is not yet fully realised on an individual level yet in all people -- the priests and kings are Gods witnesses, messengers and ambassadors of Christ and the reconciliation that he made for all.

Just to let you know that I do not like the labels that generalise. I think that on an individual spiritual level these verse is targeted at christianity

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

What I notice is that in Rev 21:24 there are the kings of the earth (which as you say believers are the kings and priests) and there are the nations that are saved as well - I see more than the kings and priests being the only ones saved.

At times when I have discussed things with you you seem to claim metaphorical meanings only when it suits your doctrine.

ie the destruction that Jesus said was coming to the Jews in 70AD via gehenna (burning of dead bodies) is a metaphor for the eternal spiritual living suffering in a spiritual fiery hell for unbelievers.
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