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Old 05-01-2010, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,446,487 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Wow! That is totally new stuff to me! How could I have been involved in discussions like this for as long as I have and not have ever even heard those terms before? I'm amazed.

Now it's my turn to be confused. If the new Heaven and the new Earth are here right now, what does that really mean? I hope you're not going to tell me that this is as good as it's going to get! People are still suffering and dying and no one has been resurrected. We're still separated from God and from our deceased loved ones. I am very, very confused.
Well... it makes me feel better considering you helped me with my confusion! Now I can return the favor.

The point of the bible was dealing with the Jews. Even though the gentiles were affected by the Jews rejection of Christ, God was dealing with the Jews. Therefore the New Heavens and New Earth are one where Jews are not the chosen ones but all men are chosen by God for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

and notice that Jesus actually stated to the Samaritan woman that he was here for the Jews.

My point is that if we look at the NH and NE from the Jewish perspective we see that the absence of animal sacrifices is the NH and NE because now the enmity between man and God is repaired so that one can communicate directly with God without needing to sacrifice animals. The Jewish leaders created a list of rules that Jesus claimed were man's laws not Gods.

Anyway, I think that people expect things to have changed. They did. God changed it from a sacrificial system to a "love of your brother" system. Notice in the description of the NH and NE the tears are wiped away which, to me, implies that there are tears there in the first place. So there is not an absence of "bad" things in the NH and NE but a new system of human to God contact.

This is how I interpret it anyway. I hope that doesn't make the confusion worse..
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,440 posts, read 21,123,040 times
Reputation: 10057
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Well... it makes me feel better considering you helped me with my confusion! Now I can return the favor.

The point of the bible was dealing with the Jews. Even though the gentiles were affected by the Jews rejection of Christ, God was dealing with the Jews. Therefore the New Heavens and New Earth are one where Jews are not the chosen ones but all men are chosen by God for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

and notice that Jesus actually stated to the Samaritan woman that he was here for the Jews.

My point is that if we look at the NH and NE from the Jewish perspective we see that the absence of animal sacrifices is the NH and NE because now the enmity between man and God is repaired so that one can communicate directly with God without needing to sacrifice animals. The Jewish leaders created a list of rules that Jesus claimed were man's laws not Gods.

Anyway, I think that people expect things to have changed. They did. God changed it from a sacrificial system to a "love of your brother" system. Notice in the description of the NH and NE the tears are wiped away which, to me, implies that there are tears there in the first place. So there is not an absence of "bad" things in the NH and NE but a new system of human to God contact.

This is how I interpret it anyway. I hope that doesn't make the confusion worse..
I guess I'm just confused by the idea that the Second Coming of Christ is believed to have already happened. I've always believed that to be the beginning of His Millennial Reign and the time when the dead would be resurrected. Since those things haven't happened, I'm still kind of wondering when they're supposed to take place.
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 1,088,250 times
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I have a question for the Catholics on this thread.....Oakback I know you are and want to say ahead of time that I hold the utmost respect for you and to the many Catholics that I personally know that are wonderful individuals.

Okay here she goes...... as of late I have had some very negative interactions with extended family members who are devout Catholics.

I have become somewhat entangled with their wrongdoings as I am an Executor of an estate that they are beneficiaries of. Without saying too much about them personally I can say that they have stolen LARGE amounts of money from the Government in addition to stealing money from family and friends. They have lived a great majority of their lives in and out of the courtrooms. They have gone from riches to rags. At present, two of them are awaiting a verdict that could send them to jail if found guilty.

These individuals persist in being very vexatious and continue to cause harm to others. This is the clincher for me. They are devout Catholics. One of them actually goes to mass on a daily basis. They go to church on Sunday, confess of their sins, say a few Hail Mary's, take the body of Christ and then venture out of the church to continue on in their frivolous and hurtful ways.

I know I must sound a tad angry because I am and Lord knows I have tried to pray for them but it is getting quite difficult.

I was raised a Catholic and have not practiced the religion since I was in my early teens so I have forgotten a lot.

What I need to know is: Do Catholics truly believe that their sins are forgiven once they have confessed to the priest, said a few Hail Mary's and then take communion? It appears that these particular family members feel that they can do harm to others and simply go to Church on Sunday to have their slate wiped clean.

Please tell me that this is not so.

Last edited by SisterKat; 05-01-2010 at 04:40 PM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 05-01-2010, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,446,487 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I guess I'm just confused by the idea that the Second Coming of Christ is believed to have already happened. I've always believed that to be the beginning of His Millennial Reign and the time when the dead would be resurrected. Since those things haven't happened, I'm still kind of wondering when they're supposed to take place.
I understand completely as I was a futurist for the majority of my life. The millenial reign was when the apostles spread the word of God under the authority of the Holy Spirit (the same authority Christ had so that the apostles were CHRIST's representatives). He reigned UNTIL all things were put under him. I interpret UNDER HIM to mean that rather than sins being UNDER ANIMAL SACRIFICE they were UNDER CHRIST's sacrifice once and for all.

The dead being resurrected is sometimes thought of as a physical resurrection but I don't see it that way. When Jesus died the tombs were opened and the dead arose... some will say they died again but that is not resurrection but resuscitation (think zombies..ewwwe). Resurrection according to the bible dictionary means going from death to life. Death is often used in scripture as DEAD IN SIN (while still physically alive)... so it is a resurrection when you are DEAD IN SIN then have LIFE IN CHRIST... does that make sense? Resurrection doesn't have to mean reanimated dead people. And remember that all people are resurrected.. some to life and some to damnation... Can we rightly say that those dead that resurrect but don't return to life on earth are resurrected? How can you have life after death if you are not seen by those truly living on earth? Something is amiss about calling an afterlife... living because you are dead not alive. But then again... I don't have all the answers!

This explanation is wholly mine, though and you will find that others have different views as I can only explain what I have found in my studies.
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Old 05-01-2010, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,440 posts, read 21,123,040 times
Reputation: 10057
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I understand completely as I was a futurist for the majority of my life. The millenial reign was when the apostles spread the word of God under the authority of the Holy Spirit (the same authority Christ had so that the apostles were CHRIST's representatives). He reigned UNTIL all things were put under him. I interpret UNDER HIM to mean that rather than sins being UNDER ANIMAL SACRIFICE they were UNDER CHRIST's sacrifice once and for all.

The dead being resurrected is sometimes thought of as a physical resurrection but I don't see it that way. When Jesus died the tombs were opened and the dead arose... some will say they died again but that is not resurrection but resuscitation (think zombies..ewwwe). Resurrection according to the bible dictionary means going from death to life. Death is often used in scripture as DEAD IN SIN (while still physically alive)... so it is a resurrection when you are DEAD IN SIN then have LIFE IN CHRIST... does that make sense? Resurrection doesn't have to mean reanimated dead people. And remember that all people are resurrected.. some to life and some to damnation... Can we rightly say that those dead that resurrect but don't return to life on earth are resurrected? How can you have life after death if you are not seen by those truly living on earth? Something is amiss about calling an afterlife... living because you are dead not alive. But then again... I don't have all the answers!

This explanation is wholly mine, though and you will find that others have different views as I can only explain what I have found in my studies.
So what do Preterists (and you, in particular, since I realize you don't all see these things the same thing) believe about the resurrection of humankind, i.e. us, you and me. When we die, what do you believe will happen to us? And will the world as we know it ever come to an end?
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,446,487 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
So what do Preterists (and you, in particular, since I realize you don't all see these things the same thing) believe about the resurrection of humankind, i.e. us, you and me. When we die, what do you believe will happen to us? And will the world as we know it ever come to an end?
Well... I believe each is resurrected to life in his own time. I have trouble interpreting a physical resurrection after or from death because it seems obscure to me. I don't know what they meant exactly by resurrection.

I would be speculating at best. All I know is that Jesus told us the laws of God hinge on this: Love God and Love each other as ourselves. This seemed to be contrary to the belief at the time, so Jesus was killed. God sent them another prophet and they killed him so they had a fate worse than Sodom and Gemorrah. This was all so that people could see that to love is greater than sacrifice. That is the new covenant. Jesus taught that to give your life for a friend is the greatest act of love and that is what he did...

Anyway, all this happened back then... now what purpose would it serve if Jesus came back thousands of years later for the supposed wrath of God and judgment of Israel? This is what convinced me that the whole bible is about past events. Why would God say the his wrath is on them when he really meant us 2000+ years ago? Why would Jesus say "this generation" if he meant another generation? Those are just questions that got me thinking about what I was reading and why I was applying it to MY future when it was future in Paul's time and PAST in my time....

Either way I see it thought the afterlife is pure speculation. I tend to lean toward the thought that Before Christ people believed they waited in their grave. If there were a change in that thought it would be that people went to heaven but that doesn't make sense to me considering I don't believe in a literal heaven. So then I have to wonder because if it is literal then why did Christ say there is no marriage... marriage suggests an intimate relationship.. so was Christ saying there are no relationships in the resurrection? If so then are we even conscious? And that means that all the time Christ is talking about life on earth it is about relationships you won't get to enjoy in the afterlife...

I also have a bunch of questions that I think I will DIE trying to get answers for!

Have you ever read the works of Josephus? It was helpful for me in understanding the thought of that day and what took place in the city during the Roman siege.

ADDED- I don't think the world will end.
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:05 PM
 
7 posts, read 19,812 times
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Here are some answers for you because your thoughts on how you say the world is don't add up in the scriptures

"I believe each is resurrected to life in his own time."

Rev 7:9 Shows a specific time in an order of events for the great crowd resurrection which is full of all the believers in Christ.

Jesus was not killed for telling to love one another but was killed according to prophecy told by Isaiah chapter 53. Read it since you don't seem to know what was foretold.

Your other argument about Jesus not referring to latter times is proven false. One the bible has to be preached in all ends of the Earth before the end can come which has only been recently fulfilled in the 20th century. Also, Jehovah wrath is on all people who are found guilty of sin, to the Jew and the Greek. So Jesus was referring to recently as the latter times where you see false doctrines and falling away from general mankind. Matt 24:14

I suggest you re-read the entire bible so you can get a thorough understanding because from your post you even said yourself you were speculating, but simply looking through it for yourself you could have answered all of your "life" questions about where we go when we die, the resurrection, the reason for suffering, why Jehovah (God) is waiting, why Satan is ruling in the world right now, what will life be like post-judgment without Satan along with evil doers, what it means to wipe away all tears from our eyes (To those saved), how works must be accompanied with Faith (Ja 2:26) etc. etc.
Ecc. 9 Talks about where the dead are and how there is no thought until the resurrection which hasn't happened yet but is in line to take place soon at the conclusion of the system of things.

There is a literal heaven as Christ was seen to ascend into it after his baptism by John.

Isaiah 65:21 Speaks of the new earth and there will be marriage and all the other like things in the Earth except division caused by Satan. "They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit."

These are 100% Accurate Scriptural inspired words of God not my own interpretation. 2 Ti 3:16

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Old 05-02-2010, 12:27 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,440 posts, read 21,123,040 times
Reputation: 10057
Quote:
Originally Posted by and1bskbl72 View Post
Here are some answers for you because your thoughts on how you say the world is don't add up in the scriptures
These are 100% Accurate Scriptural inspired words of God not my own interpretation.
Thanks for your input. Remember, though, that on this particular thread, nobody's perspective is any better than anybody else's. That's why there are all those other threads out there -- so we can all tell everybody else that's they're wrong.
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Old 05-02-2010, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,986,174 times
Reputation: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by SisterKat View Post
I have a question for the Catholics on this thread.....Oakback I know you are and want to say ahead of time that I hold the utmost respect for you and to the many Catholics that I personally know that are wonderful individuals.

Okay here she goes...... as of late I have had some very negative interactions with extended family members who are devout Catholics.

I have become somewhat entangled with their wrongdoings as I am an Executor of an estate that they are beneficiaries of. Without saying too much about them personally I can say that they have stolen LARGE amounts of money from the Government in addition to stealing money from family and friends. They have lived a great majority of their lives in and out of the courtrooms. They have gone from riches to rags. At present, two of them are awaiting a verdict that could send them to jail if found guilty.

These individuals persist in being very vexatious and continue to cause harm to others. This is the clincher for me. They are devout Catholics. One of them actually goes to mass on a daily basis. They go to church on Sunday, confess of their sins, say a few Hail Mary's, take the body of Christ and then venture out of the church to continue on in their frivolous and hurtful ways.

I know I must sound a tad angry because I am and Lord knows I have tried to pray for them but it is getting quite difficult.

I was raised a Catholic and have not practiced the religion since I was in my early teens so I have forgotten a lot.

What I need to know is: Do Catholics truly believe that their sins are forgiven once they have confessed to the priest, said a few Hail Mary's and then take communion? It appears that these particular family members feel that they can do harm to others and simply go to Church on Sunday to have their slate wiped clean.

Please tell me that this is not so.

I think it was the movie god father, or something like that, where we see murderous gangsters doing the same thing.

I'm a convert, but for many catholics it appears that their religion is as much of a cultural institution as a faith system.

I suspect if I had been born and raised catholic, the true beauty of the sacraments would have become blurred by meaningless ritual.

Do all catholics believe that confession, a few hail mary's, and communion, and all is forgiven?

That's complicated. Who am I to say Christ has not forgiven them. But I can't help to remember Christ's words to return to your brother and make things right before returning to the "alter".

IMHO, true sorrow ( contrition), and a sincere desire to repent is intregal to confession. Nevertheless, the sacrament of confession is available to all.

Let's pray, that at some point your relatives will one day really "get it".
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Old 05-02-2010, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,646 posts, read 4,035,638 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Another question: What is your church's position on the resurrection of non-human animal life (or does it even have one)? What is your personal position on the subject?


Hi All, I donít know whether someone answered this question with scripture or not yet (have not read the whole tread yet) but scripture tells us animals have souls.

The word soul in the Hebrew is nephesh, the same nephesh/soul that man has.

Compare Gen.1:24 & 1:30 with Gen.2:7

Genesis 1:24
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature/nephesh/soul after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Genesis 1:30
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life/nephesh/soul, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul/nephesh/creature.

The word nephesh is used over 700 times in the OT and makes NO distinction between man and animals. Do a word search and check it out, nephesh is used for both.

Are animals then saved?

The ark (Noahís) is a type of Christ, all who are in Christ are saved.
Both man and animal were saved in the ark.

Seems to me animals benefit from Christ just as man does; howbeit, there is a difference in the manner of being saved. Man is saved out of their sins and death, animals do not sin but are saved out of death.

Anyway, thatís my two cents.

God bless
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