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Old 04-22-2010, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 4,132,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
"Thou shalt not type with fingers that have recently handled bacon for purposes of thine own bacon consumption. Thou shalt experience fingers slipping upon the keyboard as a result, thus resulting in typos. Thou shalt only do so when wearing a hot coat."

~(taken from) The Gospel According to June

GIRL !!

I don't know....(er..excuse me for a second...Burp..Belch)
what your talking about!



hiccup
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Old 04-22-2010, 10:40 AM
 
1,139 posts, read 962,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I have a question for Catholics. I know that Protestants, for the most part, believe in Sola Scriptura, while Catholics do not. I understand -- in general terms -- that they believe instead in scripture plus holy tradition. What I would like to know is how tradition is established. I mean, as a Mormon, it makes sense to me that there are sources of truth other than the Bible. But how does the Catholic Church go about incorporating holy tradition into its doctrine? I wish I had some specific examples to give you, but the only thing that comes to mind right now are what I believe are known as the Marian doctrines. I'm thinking of things like Mary's immaculate conception, her perpetual virginity, her bodily ascension into Heaven, etc. They seem to have gained "official" status at various times throughout the history of the Church as opposed to having all been believed and practiced from the beginning. I'm wondering why these things would have just become doctrinal hundreds of years after Christ's death. I'm assuming it is "tradition" that they have always been taught, but how is this validated? Did my question make any sense at all?
I'll go a little further that Oakback did. What dictates tradition? Well it's what has always been traditionally believed. Remember in the beginning of Christianity, there was no bible. they relied on soely tradition. Yes people began to start writing letters, gospels and such. But there was no set book. God didn't reach down from the heavens, and say "Here I give you the NEW Testament." No. men merely wrote what was either taught to them by Christ himself, or what was taught by the Apostles and such. So then we have a bunch of writings. Which one's are true, which ones contain error. Well, the church, the pillar and foundation of truth, said hey, what do we believe, which ones of these teach that. They used tradition to pick which writing were to be in what we call the New Testament. Well now we have the New Testament. But did people just stop writing? Of course not. We have plenty of writings past when the works of the New Testament was written. People like Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, and many many others. They continue the Tradition. So we look back, see what was written, what has always been Traditionally believed from the beginning. Also, some arguments are made sometimes that new beliefs come about, then they point to some council. They do this ignorantly. Only because the misunderstand the purpose of a council. Councils, generally aren't convened to come up with a belief, but to get together to REaffirm a pre-existing belief, that some have come to question.

I'm not very affluent on the apoligetics of the Marian doctrines, though I believe them fully, so I won't comment on them. I would say, like Oakback, to look it up if you want more info. I hope this helps. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

Oh and another thing. Tradition never trumps scripture. If it goes against scripture, scripture wins. But it there are multiple interpretations of scripture, the one that follows traditions wins out.
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 4,132,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
I'll go a little further that Oakback did. What dictates tradition? Well it's what has always been traditionally believed. Remember in the beginning of Christianity, there was no bible. they relied on soely tradition. Yes people began to start writing letters, gospels and such. But there was no set book. God didn't reach down from the heavens, and say "Here I give you the NEW Testament." No. men merely wrote what was either taught to them by Christ himself, or what was taught by the Apostles and such. So then we have a bunch of writings. Which one's are true, which ones contain error. Well, the church, the pillar and foundation of truth, said hey, what do we believe, which ones of these teach that. They used tradition to pick which writing were to be in what we call the New Testament. Well now we have the New Testament. But did people just stop writing? Of course not. We have plenty of writings past when the works of the New Testament was written. People like Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, and many many others. They continue the Tradition. So we look back, see what was written, what has always been Traditionally believed from the beginning. Also, some arguments are made sometimes that new beliefs come about, then they point to some council. They do this ignorantly. Only because the misunderstand the purpose of a council. Councils, generally aren't convened to come up with a belief, but to get together to REaffirm a pre-existing belief, that some have come to question.

I'm not very affluent on the apoligetics of the Marian doctrines, though I believe them fully, so I won't comment on them. I would say, like Oakback, to look it up if you want more info. I hope this helps. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

Oh and another thing. Tradition never trumps scripture. If it goes against scripture, scripture wins. But it there are multiple interpretations of scripture, the one that follows traditions wins out.

I'm one Catholic who would like to see the day when ALL Christians of ALL denominations would ALL participate in doctrinal development.

We ALL suffer from a divided Christendom.
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:08 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,762,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpidrAkirE View Post
I have a question for anyone and everyone:

According to your beliefs and churches, does everyone (including non-Christians and those who are unbaptised) have the chance of going to heaven after death? Or only those who follow Christ "completely" (as in baptism as well as belief). There seem to be different interpretations as to who goes to heaven and who doesn't.

Thanks!
Hi Spidr,

Here is my answer (from the 50,000 ft view), which I believe is scripturally based.

Its not about getting to "heaven" or avoiding "hell". What it is about is learning. Learning how to be kind. Learning how to be patient. Learning how to be obedient. Learning how to LOVE. We are all at different stages, but in the end all will learn.

What Jesus did on the cross was redeem all of creation. He takes away the sin of the world. Part of that process is us learning how to LOVE.
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,792 posts, read 9,331,620 times
Reputation: 4552
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
I'll go a little further that Oakback did. What dictates tradition? Well it's what has always been traditionally believed. Remember in the beginning of Christianity, there was no bible. they relied on soely tradition. Yes people began to start writing letters, gospels and such. But there was no set book. God didn't reach down from the heavens, and say "Here I give you the NEW Testament." No. men merely wrote what was either taught to them by Christ himself, or what was taught by the Apostles and such. So then we have a bunch of writings.
Yes, I realize that. In fact, I am always amazed when people talk as if "the Bible" (the version they use, specifically) just magically appeared on the scene one say.

Quote:
Which one's are true, which ones contain error. Well, the church, the pillar and foundation of truth, said hey, what do we believe, which ones of these teach that. They used tradition to pick which writing were to be in what we call the New Testament. Well now we have the New Testament. But did people just stop writing? Of course not. We have plenty of writings past when the works of the New Testament was written. People like Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, and many many others. They continue the Tradition. So we look back, see what was written, what has always been Traditionally believed from the beginning. Also, some arguments are made sometimes that new beliefs come about, then they point to some council. They do this ignorantly. Only because the misunderstand the purpose of a council. Councils, generally aren't convened to come up with a belief, but to get together to REaffirm a pre-existing belief, that some have come to question.
That's actually what I was referring to. I guess what I have a problem with is why, if certain things were taught and believed "from the beginning," we don't see them appear as official doctrine for hundreds and hundreds of years down the line. I'm sure there is an explanation for this. That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

Quote:
I'm not very affluent on the apoligetics of the Marian doctrines, though I believe them fully, so I won't comment on them. I would say, like Oakback, to look it up if you want more info. I hope this helps. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.
I was just using the Marian doctrines as an example. I wasn't trying to pin you down on them or anything like that. But since I did use them as my example and since you mentioned them in your reply, maybe you could tell me how early in the history of Christian writings we find anything that would support the Catholic belief that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life. (Please understand that I am not attempting to say she did or didn't. I'm just trying to figure out what Christians in 50 A.D. or 100 A.D. or 150 A.D. believed and how this became part of your Church's official doctrine. Again, I just used the Marian doctrines as an example, but hopefully you can see where I'm going with my question.)

Quote:
Oh and another thing. Tradition never trumps scripture. If it goes against scripture, scripture wins. But it there are multiple interpretations of scripture, the one that follows traditions wins out.
I can understand that. And heaven knows, we are all aware that there are multiple interpretations of scripture.
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,792 posts, read 9,331,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
I'm one Catholic who would like to see the day when ALL Christians of ALL denominations would ALL participate in doctrinal development.
Could you explain what you mean by that?

Quote:
We ALL suffer from a divided Christendom.
Well, that's for sure!
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:17 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,762,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Ilene, this is a class of testimony that you see only a hand full of times in your life - that grace and mercy would triumph over judgment. We are all being changed, and to find common ground with you at the foot of the Cross is an honor.
Yes it has been amazing watching this transformation in you Ilene. Simply amazing! God's grace is amazing... Anyway in regards to the OP I'll post here what I told Ilene in the other thread.

In the past I believed in eternal torment, mainstream fundamental Christian style. Now I believe in UR, also called Universal Reconciliation, or Christian Universal Salvation - the idea that all people who ever existed will eventually be saved and come into unity with God through His son Jesus Christ. Now you can get dragged down into the details trying to understand this, but at the 50,000 ft view it is very simple:

1. God wants to save all people, He is able and willing to do it, no one can stop Him.

2. Our supposed "free will" is not as free as we think it is - in the sense that our "free will" cannot stop God from achieving His goal of saving all people. Ultimately God can change a man's will so it is inline with His own. Witness Saul's conversion to Paul.

3. In the end every knee will bow and every tongue confess - so then we will have perfect unity. God wants all to come to Him and all will come to Him.

These concepts are very easy to see in scripture, you only have to be open to seeing it. Peace out...
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Earth, Milky Way
290 posts, read 196,786 times
Reputation: 127
Lets see if I understand... please correct me if not!

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi Spidr,

Here is my answer (from the 50,000 ft view), which I believe is scripturally based.

Its not about getting to "heaven" or avoiding "hell". What it is about is learning. Learning how to be kind. Learning how to be patient. Learning how to be obedient. Learning how to LOVE. We are all at different stages, but in the end all will learn.

What Jesus did on the cross was redeem all of creation. He takes away the sin of the world. Part of that process is us learning how to LOVE.
So as long as one learns about kindness, patience, obedience and LOVE, regardless of a belief in Christ as the Son of God, one will go to heaven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Yes, but in general there is nothing left to "chance". All are saved through Jesus Christ because God promises that this will happen, so it is a matter of scriptural fact.
Pretty clear...only a belief in Christ as Son of God are you accepted by God into the Kingdom of heaven...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
I"ll answer you with a question;

Do you believe that a perfectly just and Loving God,who loves you with a love that we can't fully comprehend
offer you a chance?

I do.

( And anyway, our LDS freinds have probably baptized you already )
Ha! Thanks. So everyone regardless of religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well as everyone pretty much knows now (nobody figured it out for a very long time ) I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We're the ones everybody calls "Mormons" (well, sometimes they make an intentional typo and leave out the middle "m"). It is my Church's official doctrine that virtually everybody will go to Heaven. We do believe in Heaven that is, for lack of a better word, "multi-tiered.") In other words, it will not be the same for everyone who is there, but it will be wonderful for all, and everyone will be very happy where they end up.
Yes I guessed you were a Mormon from (apologies for the assumption) your location: Salt Lake City (I'm going this Summer!! SO excited!!! ) Anyway, back to the point...virtually everyone? And what do you mean when you say Heaven will not be the same for everyone? (they didn't explain this when I visited a Mormon church! )

Thanks everyone!
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:42 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,762,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpidrAkirE View Post
Lets see if I understand... please correct me if not!



So as long as one learns about kindness, patience, obedience and LOVE, regardless of a belief in Christ as the Son of God, one will go to heaven?
Um, not exactly. Its only through Christ son of God that anyone can be saved. But its also only through Christ son of God that anyone will ultimately learn how to love fully.

And like I said, its not about getting to "heaven". The scriptures barely speak about "getting into heaven". What the scriptures speak about is entering the Kingdom of heaven, which is an entirely different matter IMHO (which I won't get into right now). Spidr, when you speak about "going to heaven" are you visualizing a fancy city in the clouds with streets of gold and chocolate fountains? Forget about that. That is the carnal man-made view of a heavenly paradise to satisfy all his earthly desires. Our purpose is not to live nicely and follow Christ here on earth so we can later gorge ourselves on chocolate in heaven.

Here is the purpose of it all: God is creating a family - He wants His family to be like Him, so He is making us to be like Him. In order to be like God, we be must be made in His image, which is LOVE. Part of this includes understanding good and evil. Understanding good and evil is required so we will learn to LOVE. This involves us going through many trials and judgments through fire (metaphorically speaking here), where we will be "refined". It will happen for every person, each in their own order (not necessarily all in this life either), and then God will be all in all.
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,792 posts, read 9,331,620 times
Reputation: 4552
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpidrAkirE View Post
Yes I guessed you were a Mormon from (apologies for the assumption) your location: Salt Lake City (I'm going this Summer!! SO excited!!! )
Neat! Drop over to the Salt Lake City forum and let us see if we can give you any hints to make your trip a nice one!

Quote:
Anyway, back to the point...virtually everyone?
Yes, "virtually." The Bible speaks of one sin that cannot be forgiven in either this life or the life to come, and that is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. I suppose we could explore in greater depth what that sin really is. I know I've heard a million different interpretations of it myself. We believe that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the denial of the truth when it comes in such a form that it would be essentially "undeniable." Lousy explanation, I know. What I'm getting at is that all of us walk in faith. We believe what we believe because of faith, and not because we have absolutel proof. But consider the Apostle Peter, though. He was present at Christ's Transfiguration. He was a witness to an event that could hardly be explained to be anything other than absolute proof that God exists and that Jesus Christ was His Only Begotten Son. Had Peter denied what He saw that day, in light of the reality of it, he (according to LDS doctrine) would have committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. So, to us, the number of people who have every lived who have even been in a position to be able to do so is miniscule. Assuming that there may be a handful among the billions of people who have ever lived who have done so, I used the word "virtual." Anyway, aside from those people, and the devil and his angels who were cast out of heaven long ago, we believe that everyone else will go to Heaven.

Quote:
And what do you mean when you say Heaven will not be the same for everyone? (they didn't explain this when I visited a Mormon church! )
Well, if you only visited once or twice, it may very well not have come up. It's certainly not an obscure doctrine, though. It's understood and accepted as true by the general membership of the Church and is definitely one of our "official" teachings. We believe in a Heaven that is divided into three kingdoms or "degrees of glory." Paul spoke of these (I'd have to look it up and I don't have time right now.) when he was teaching of the resurrection. He referred to two of them by name: the Celestial Glory (like that of the sun), the Terrestrial Glory (like that of the moon) and another, which we know as the Telestial Glory (like that of the stars). We believe everyone will attain one of these three degrees of glory, based upon their faithfulness and obedience. I can go into it more if you'd like. I'll just leave it at that for now.
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