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Old 04-28-2010, 08:34 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,987,055 times
Reputation: 58209

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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I'm outta reps for you right now but I just wanted to say how amazing it is to see you so on fire for God.... (pun intended). Not that you have to believe in UR, but that you are so fired up... I mean...

It's hard to explain to someone what you are going through unless we've experienced it ourselves... I admire you... hopefully all of us together can help to tone down all the hellfire teaching to how it rightfully was meant to be taught... it's not about abandoning biblical principals its about seeing what the writers of the OT and NT actually had in mind.

You go girl! I'm sure with all your study, YOU will be showing us all a thing or two. I can't wait!
Yes, FIRE!!! Thanks Kat, I am learning so much and it's very exciting. Yikes, can you imagine what I will be like when I actually know what I'm talking about?? I can't even put into words all the things that are swirling around in my head right now.....I have to put things on paper and study them out one by one. I have to go out and buy a new notebook today!!

I would just like to say to Legoman too a great big THANK YOU for starting this thread and making it so easy to understand. I hope people will take the time to read and study.....what a glorious thing that I am feeling!!

God is so awesome!!

 
Old 04-28-2010, 08:50 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,595,943 times
Reputation: 686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Is this a picture of hell? . . .

Matthew 13:41-42 CLV The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His
messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and
those doing lawlessness, (42) and they shall be casting them into a
furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:49-50 CLV Thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon. The
messengers will be coming out and they will be severing the wicked from
the midst of the just. (50) And they shall be casting them into a furnace
of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.

No.

Notice these miscreants are to be sent into a furnace. But what kind of furnace?

(1 Kings 8:51 CLV) (for Your people and Your inheritance [are] they, whom You did bring out of Egypt, out of the midst of the furnace of iron).

(Jeremiah 11:4 CLV) That I commanded your fathers, In the day of My bringing them out from the land of Egypt, Out of the iron furnace, saying, Hearken to My voice, and you have done them, According to all that I command you, And you have been to Me for a people, And I am to you for Elohim,

(Ezekiel 22:18 CLV) The house of Israel has been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace--dross has silver been,

(Ezekiel 22:20 CLV) A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnace--to blow on it fire, to melt it, So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you."

Notice God used the furnace in Israel's day to refine His people.
Was Egypt a literal furnace with literal fire? If Egypt was a literal furnace why weren't the Egyptians suffering the same as Israel while held captive 400 years?
Egypt was a figurative furnace TO THE ISRAELITES because they were under severe bondage. It was like a FIERY trial to them.

Now fast forward to when Christ returns and re-read Matthew 13:41-50 which I quoted above. Not only are those bad Israelites going to be thrust back into the harsh furnace of servitude but the bad nations which maltreated Christ's brethren are going to as well as revealed in Matthew 25:31-46. They will enter into the figurative fiery trials.

What say you?
I say "Good post Eusebius!"

I hadn't considered that the word "furnace" itself also has a meaning as a place of refinement. I will have to study that more.

Thanks!
 
Old 04-28-2010, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Florida
62,635 posts, read 34,138,335 times
Reputation: 10392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
The rich man had all the same desires as a human.....he just wanted water and he wanted Lazarus to go back and tell his brothers. That tells me that the "old" man was being refined into a "new" creature entirely.
How does it explain the rich man was being refined into a new creature?

Pay attention to the ending of the parable: "He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’

The only way to stay out of that place, and worse, the lake of fire (permanent hell) is to listen and believe, but Abraham says many do not listen and believe. They won't listen even if they saw someone being raised form the dead.

"Faith comes from hearing the message." Rom 10:17 And Jesus said, "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:46,47
 
Old 04-28-2010, 12:03 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,883,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
How does it explain the rich man was being refined into a new creature?

Pay attention to the ending of the parable: "He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’

The only way to stay out of that place, and worse, the lake of fire (permanent hell) is to listen and believe, but Abraham says many do not listen and believe. They won't listen even if they saw someone being raised form the dead.

"Faith comes from hearing the message." Rom 10:17 And Jesus said, "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:46,47
But Finn, first of all, there is not any scripture which states one goes to the lake of fire for not believing Christ died for their sins.

Also the rich man didn't go to Hades because he didn't believe. He went there only because he had gotten good things in this life. And the only reason Lazarus went to Abraham is he received evil things in this life. So it is not based upon believe but upon your status in life.

Also, the statement is true that: They won't listen even if they saw someone being raised form the dead.
Why? Because it all depends upon God who gets faith and who does not.
So why would God send someone to hell for not having faith when, after all, it is up to God to give it in the first place?
 
Old 04-28-2010, 12:08 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,614 posts, read 30,181,389 times
Reputation: 30163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
How does it explain the rich man was being refined into a new creature?

Pay attention to the ending of the parable: "He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’

The only way to stay out of that place, and worse, the lake of fire (permanent hell) is to listen and believe, but Abraham says many do not listen and believe. They won't listen even if they saw someone being raised form the dead.

"Faith comes from hearing the message." Rom 10:17 And Jesus said, "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:46,47
AMEN! And as you can see many here are not listening and not believing
 
Old 04-28-2010, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,867 posts, read 21,987,770 times
Reputation: 10620
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
This thread is for those who wish to honestly study what the scriptural meaning of the word "hell" is. Discussions about unquenchable fire, undying worms, furnace of fire, and the lake of fire may also be on topic but I would like to focus on the specific meaning of the word "hell" first.

What may surprise many people at first is that the word "hell" is not actually in the original scriptures. It is actually a translation from 4 words: sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus. And only 2 of these words have the same meaning.

This is reflected by looking at various English bibles, and we can see how different translations have translated the above words differently. For example:

KJV has the word "hell" 54 times.
NLT has the word "hell" 20 times.
NIV has the word "hell" 14 times.
YLT has the word "hell" 0 times.

Another thing which may surprise people, is that "hell" is no where described as eternal, even in the KJV! Do a search on biblegateway.com for "eternal hell" to verify this yourself.

Why the vast difference in how this word "hell" is translated? Largely it is due to the fact that it is based on the above 4 words: sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus. Each of these has their own meanings, so it actually makes little sense to translate it as one single word "hell".

"Hell" in English brings to mind this idea of the wicked being in eternal torment in fire, or eternal separation from God. However when we look at how the above words are used, we will see there are some discrepancies with common belief and what scripture actually says.
Very informative, legoman!
 
Old 04-28-2010, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,867 posts, read 21,987,770 times
Reputation: 10620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
I even look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in a different way now. How is it that the rich man was even able to speak?
He was able not only to speak but was still a cognizant being who yearned for something he realized he did not have.

Quote:
Is that chasm between heaven and hell a permanent one or not?
I don't believe it is. I believe it was at one time, but has not been since Jesus visited the Spirit World after His death but before His resurrection. There are still people there right now who are feeling exactly the same way the rich man was feeling.
 
Old 04-28-2010, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,348 posts, read 9,077,525 times
Reputation: 12962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
But Finn, first of all, there is not any scripture which states one goes to the lake of fire for not believing Christ died for their sins.

What of Rev. 14:9-11?
 
Old 04-28-2010, 09:57 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,767,043 times
Reputation: 264
Originally Posted by Eusebius
But Finn, first of all, there is not any scripture which states one goes to the lake of fire for not believing Christ died for their sins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
What of Rev. 14:9-11?
Those verses say nothing at all about someone believing that Jesus died for their sins.
 
Old 04-28-2010, 10:03 PM
 
Location: texas
3,059 posts, read 3,220,308 times
Reputation: 1738
Hell is someplace I would rather not be.....
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