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Fact 1.
No one can meet Christ until the resurrection and until Christ comes to meet us in the air as a group.
Fact 2. The dead know nothing. The bible says so.
Fact 3. People don't go to heaven or hell when they die. (Again, the need for a resurrection disproves anyone goes to heaven when they die.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
David was righteous only relative to other humans.
The bible says "all sin and are wanting of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one." Paul wrote that and knew the Old Testament better than most since he was a pharisee. David was a murderer and adulterer.
Thanks.
You have pretty much exposed yourself for what you are.
A wrong one...but at least it was what you wanted to hear.
Thessalonians says that " God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.", then it is funny they don't wonder how it is possible if everyone is supposed to be in their grave. If everyone's body and soul are in the grave, then how can they be with Jesus when he comes back?
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
In the above Paul is talking to believers who were worried that they would miss the rapture if they died before it occurs. And they worried that their loved ones might miss it because they were already dead.
Also, when Corinthians and Philippians both say that dead believers will be with the Lord, then how can anyone argue otherwise? Paul said he'd rather be dead so they can be with the LORD. He didn't say he wanted to die so he can go to his grave. Oh, sorry dear universliats, I didn't mean to say "so", I meant "and". Huuuuuuuge difference. LOL (sigh).
Thessalonians says that " God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.", then it is funny they don't wonder how it is possible when they do not believe that believers go to be with the Lord when they die. If everyone's body and soul are in the grave, then how can Jesus bring them with?
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
In the above Paul is talking to believers who were worried that they would miss the rapture if they died before it occurs. And they worried that their loved ones might miss it because they were already dead.
Also, when Corinthians and Philippians both say that dead believers will be with the Lord, then how can anyone argue otherwise? Paul said he'd rather be dead so they can be with the LORD. He didn't say he wanted to die so he can go to his grave. Oh, sorry dear universliats, I didn't mean to say "so", I meant "and". Huuuuuuuge difference. LOL (sigh).
PS universalists need not reply. Thank you.
Finn, it is those who are dead and in the grave who are going to rise from the dead as a group and meet the living believers and they will be lead forth together with Him:
1Th 4:14-18 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him." (15) For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, (16) for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first, (17) Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (18) So that, console one another with these words."
Eusebuis did not ignore the point completely....he gave you these verses (I think)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
....how is that ignoring the point????
Again, if he is misunderstanding these verses, then "what do they mean then"??
I already answered that ten or eleven pages ago, but you wouldn't know since you won't bother to read the thread.
Thessalonians says that " God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.", then it is funny they don't wonder how it is possible when they do not believe that believers go to be with the Lord when they die. If everyone's body and soul are in the grave, then how can Jesus bring them with?
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
In the above Paul is talking to believers who were worried that they would miss the rapture if they died before it occurs. And they worried that their loved ones might miss it because they were already dead.
Also, when Corinthians and Philippians both say that dead believers will be with the Lord, then how can anyone argue otherwise? Paul said he'd rather be dead so they can be with the LORD. He didn't say he wanted to die so he can go to his grave. Oh, sorry dear universliats, I didn't mean to say "so", I meant "and". Huuuuuuuge difference. LOL (sigh).
PS universalists need not reply. Thank you.
I know. Elijah didn't die and is in heaven 2 Kings 2:11 , Peter saw Moses and Elijah Matthew 17:3 , Enoch didn't die and went to heaven Genesis 5:24
Simply, many of these universalists are so blinded that in their haste to prove themselve, their hatred of the truth inadvertantly comes out.
"PS universalists need not reply. Thank you" ...... ditto
Finn, it is those who are dead and in the grave who are going to rise from the dead as a group and meet the living believers and they will be lead forth together with Him:
1Th 4:14-18 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him." (15) For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, (16) for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first, (17) Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (18) So that, console one another with these words."
Eusebius....
I dont quite get what he is getting at. Is he saying that the dead OT people are with Jesus now?? He is quoting scriptures that have a 'future tense' to them and I think he knows they are 'future tense' by bringing up a future rapture. I think he is trying to get accross a point that I am missing. We all have to go through 'death', so he is correct when he thinks that the 'good people' WILL die. Or am I correct in thinking he thinks that when a believer dies he goes straight to heaven and an unbeliever goes straight to hell (either his version of it, or ours).
Finn....
Yes, I have read the whole thread. And yes, as I have suspected I posed a question, the you "changed the subject" and "drop it completely" and "ignored" it.
You can still answer it though if you would like.
"Where is David now" according to the scriptures??
I dont quite get what he is getting at. Is he saying that the dead OT people are with Jesus now??
If you read the whole thread as you claim, then you must have seen the verse I quoted from Ephesians which proves Christ descended to "lower parts" and then ascended with the "captives in his train" so he could fill the universe. He emptied Abraham's bosom, which was the good side of Hades. And the other verses I have provided prove that when believers die today, they go to be with the LORD.
How many times do these things need to be repeated until you stop saying no one answers your questions? It is getting a little tiresome with the never ending bickering and demands for answers which were already given.
Quote:
"Where is David now" according to the scriptures??
The Bible is not a phone book with everyones name and current address on it. If he was in Abraham's bosom aka the good side of Hades, then I believe he was picked up among the other 'captives' when Christ emptied it. If he was in the bad side of Hades, then he is still there. His physical body of course was buried in his grave. Very few people were actually picked up living and in their body like Jesus.
I know. Elijah didn't die and is in heaven 2 Kings 2:11 , Peter saw Moses and Elijah Matthew 17:3 , Enoch didn't die and went to heaven Genesis 5:24
Simply, many of these universalists are so blinded that in their haste to prove themselve, their hatred of the truth inadvertantly comes out.
"PS universalists need not reply. Thank you" ...... ditto
Kings 2:11....ah ha...the old "letter from heaven" defense. Elijah was obviously ON THE EARTH later on though.
2Ch 21:12 And there came a writing (letter) to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
And yes Peter DID see Moses and Elijah. In a "VISION". Look up every use of the Greek word "horama" and you will know in what way they saw them.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel …….
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch …….
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, ……..
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, ……
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara……
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
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