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Old 05-02-2010, 09:49 AM
 
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Here's my two cents worth regarding, "What is 'Hell' according to the scriptures?" There's a lot of disagreement on this thread about what it means. I think everyone, through seeking God, should come to a firm decision about what they believe that is, and then search themselves to figure out how they are supposed to apply that knowledge to their lives.

So, if someone comes to the conclusion that they correctly interpreted the scriptures that hell is a literal lake of fire, and they believe the vast majority of mankind will end up there, then nothing else should matter! IMO, they should cancel all the events on their calendar and do nothing but warn people of their impending doom. From what I've seen my whole life, Christians pay lip-service to this doctrine, but it's not worth their time or pride to devote their lives to preventing people from burning forever. How does this line up with the second greatest commandment, "love your neighbor as yourself?"

For those of you who do believe in a literal lake of fire, please quote scriptures that either stress the importance of warning people of their destination, or quote scriptures that say not to worry too much about it, and to let people fend for themselves. Which is it?

For those of us who do not believe in a literal lake of fire, we should ask ourselves then, what matters the most? What doctrine makes nothing else matter? I think the answer is summed up with the two greatest commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. And love your neighbor as yourself. That being said, what scriptures tell us what to do about what is most important? What first comes to mind is: feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit the fatherless and widows, grow spiritually, worship, and praise, to name a few.

So, if you believe in a literal lake of fire for unbelievers, can you think of anything more important? What are you doing to love your neighbor as yourself and stop people from going there?

 
Old 05-02-2010, 10:29 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,880,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa View Post
On 5/2/10 @ 06:11 am Finn_Jarber wrote:

Of all the verses of the Bible that is misquoted this has to be the one MOST misquoted ones of all, most frequently.

You need to revisit and reread it again. That IS NOT what it says.Lets look at it:

II Cor. 5:8--"We are confiden, I say, and willing ['confident AND willing'--two things, not one] rather to be absent from the body, AND TO BE PRESENT ['absent and be present'--two things, not one] with the Lord."

It is "AND to be present," and "IS to be present." This makes it two differnt things, not one and the same thing. Furthermore, "TO BE" is future tense not present tense as in the same instance as death, but rather something that will happen after in the future--AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Paul knew that he would be resurrected from the dead in the future, not that he would be present with the Lord the instant that he died (See I Cor. 15:50-54).

He is not saying is to be

If I were to say that I long to be away from my house and to be at the beach, you would not think I said I long to be away from my house is to be at the beach, or would you?
I would say .... Of all the verses of the Bible that is misquoted has to be the one MOST misquoted ones of all, most frequently......is [at least from the UR crowd]

1 Timothy 2:4
4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
 
Old 05-02-2010, 10:37 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,880,410 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Here's my two cents worth regarding, "What is 'Hell' according to the scriptures?" There's a lot of disagreement on this thread about what it means. I think everyone, through seeking God, should come to a firm decision about what they believe that is, and then search themselves to figure out how they are supposed to apply that knowledge to their lives.

So, if someone comes to the conclusion that they correctly interpreted the scriptures that hell is a literal lake of fire, and they believe the vast majority of mankind will end up there, then nothing else should matter! IMO, they should cancel all the events on their calendar and do nothing but warn people of their impending doom. From what I've seen my whole life, Christians pay lip-service to this doctrine, but it's not worth their time or pride to devote their lives to preventing people from burning forever. How does this line up with the second greatest commandment, "love your neighbor as yourself?"

For those of you who do believe in a literal lake of fire, please quote scriptures that either stress the importance of warning people of their destination, or quote scriptures that say not to worry too much about it, and to let people fend for themselves. Which is it?
Matthew 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

1 Corinthians 11:32
When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."


He who has ears let him hear Matthew 11:15

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

Matthew 13:43
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.






 
Old 05-02-2010, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,440,091 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Yes... lets stick to the topic.

Though I believe that hades can be translated as grave, it is not a grave (sotospeak) like a tomb, but rather a 'realm'. The BODY is in the tomb but the SOUL is in hades.

I will try to explain, in my opinion, what ‘sheol/hades’ is to me. To me, it a little different than what one could call a “grave”. This is what I got so far...

To start with, “Living Created Man” has a simple formula in the scriptures.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
So one can see, by this scripture, what Adam was. He was Dust (body)+God’s Breath (spirit). At this time he now ‘exists’ as a Living Soul. So the formula is not…

Body + Spirit + Soul = Man
Or
Body x Spirit x Soul = One Triune Man

It is simply a Body plus Spirit equals a “Living Soul”. So to take away the ‘spirit’ from the ‘body’, you would be left with a DEAD soul. To understand ‘what’ happens to all of these aspects (body, spirit, soul) AFTER death can be very helpful.
So where do the scriptures say the Spirit goes after death? Using Christ Himself is a great example.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

To the Father is where the spirit goes as scripture states

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to the God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7).

So the Spirit goes to the Father who gave it, but where did Christ’s BODY go??

Matt. 27:59-60: "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb ... "

So Jesus was DEAD and BURIED (entombed). The ‘body’ then, it goes to the dust/ground from which it came. "Then shall the dust return to the earth” (Ecc. 12:7).


Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

So WHERE is Christ at this time, the “person” they knew and talked to when He walked the earth?? Where is the “HE” or the “HIM”?? We can say rightfully that “Jesus HAS a BODY”, and we know where His “body” went at this time, but where is Jesus “Himself”??

So far we have a ‘living soul’ that died because the ‘spirit’ left Him, we are now left with a ‘dead soul’. So where did His ‘soul’ go??

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The ‘soul’ goes to ‘hades’ as the scripture says…

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave (sheol/hades): for he shall receive me. Selah.
I'm sorry I can't address this as I don't agree with your interpretation of Genesis. It says Body + Spirit = Soul. I don't see your point. Hades meant grave in the literal sense to the Hebrews as far as I know.
 
Old 05-02-2010, 11:04 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,730,389 times
Reputation: 263
For those of you who do believe in a literal lake of fire, please quote scriptures that either stress the importance of warning people of their destination, or quote scriptures that say not to worry too much about it, and to let people fend for themselves. Which is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Matthew 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

1 Corinthians 11:32
When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."


He who has ears let him hear Matthew 11:15

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

Matthew 13:43
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

None of these scriptures tell believers to either warn unbelievers that they are going to burn in a literal hell, or tell them not to worry about warning them.

Edit: See my next post for more on these verses.

Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 05-02-2010 at 11:15 AM..
 
Old 05-02-2010, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,644 posts, read 4,031,198 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Yes... lets stick to the topic.

Though I believe that hades can be translated as grave, it is not a grave (sotospeak) like a tomb, but rather a 'realm'. The BODY is in the tomb but the SOUL is in hades.

I will try to explain, in my opinion, what ‘sheol/hades’ is to me. To me, it a little different than what one could call a “grave”. This is what I got so far...

To start with, “Living Created Man” has a simple formula in the scriptures.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
So one can see, by this scripture, what Adam was. He was Dust (body)+God’s Breath (spirit). At this time he now ‘exists’ as a Living Soul. So the formula is not…

Body + Spirit + Soul = Man
Or
Body x Spirit x Soul = One Triune Man

It is simply a Body plus Spirit equals a “Living Soul”. So to take away the ‘spirit’ from the ‘body’, you would be left with a DEAD soul. To understand ‘what’ happens to all of these aspects (body, spirit, soul) AFTER death can be very helpful.
So where do the scriptures say the Spirit goes after death? Using Christ Himself is a great example.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

To the Father is where the spirit goes as scripture states

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to the God Who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7).

So the Spirit goes to the Father who gave it, but where did Christ’s BODY go??

Matt. 27:59-60: "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb ... "

So Jesus was DEAD and BURIED (entombed). The ‘body’ then, it goes to the dust/ground from which it came. "Then shall the dust return to the earth” (Ecc. 12:7).


Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

So WHERE is Christ at this time, the “person” they knew and talked to when He walked the earth?? Where is the “HE” or the “HIM”?? We can say rightfully that “Jesus HAS a BODY”, and we know where His “body” went at this time, but where is Jesus “Himself”??

So far we have a ‘living soul’ that died because the ‘spirit’ left Him, we are now left with a ‘dead soul’. So where did His ‘soul’ go??

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The ‘soul’ goes to ‘hades’ as the scripture says…

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave (sheol/hades): for he shall receive me. Selah.

Hi Joe. Although I might not agree with everything you wrote here I do agree that man was created a dust man. Here is something I wrote a few years ago regarding this. Anyway hope it is helpful in your studies


Breath of life

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Many believe that this is speaking of how natural man was created.
They believe that God took dust from the ground, breathed His spirit into the dust and that this union of dust and spirit is the make up of man who is then called a living soul.

But is that what God said?

Let’s look closely at this scripture.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground.

It says plainly here that God formed MAN of the dust of the ground before He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and before MAN became a living soul.

Now we know that man is made up of spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This man of dust already had a spirit, soul and body, for is not man made up of spirit, soul and body?

And if this man of dust spoken of here did not already have a spirit, soul and body can it be rightly called man?

Cannot we understand by this that man was already created? And that God is doing something other then creating a natural man here?

Brothers and sisters God is not creating a natural man here as in the creation of the first man Adam, but He is shaping man to be in His image and likeness here.

We read in Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The word created here comes from the Hebrew word bara and formed from Genesis 2:7 is the Hebrew word yatsar.

So why does the scriptures use two different words if they are both dealing with the creation of man?

Because the man being formed in Genesis 2:7 finds his fulfillment in Gen.1:26-27 in being created in the image and likeness of God.

Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay.

Genesis 2:7 is telling us the process of how we are being formed into the image and likeness of God, it is not telling us how natural man was created, but it is telling us how the spiritual man is being created.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now we have always read this scripture (me included) as to how MAN was originally created. And I believe we have been understanding it all wrong.
This is not speaking about how man was originally created, but rather it is speaking of how God is making the MAN he originally created into His image and likeness.

Now when God formed MAN He formed MAN from the dust of the ground.
Now this MAN God formed from the dust of the ground already had a spirit, soul, and body. He is the flesh man or the old man or the man of sin, a living creature/beast man that lives unto itself, this is that MAN we are/were before God breathes the breath of life unto MAN.

Now Gods breath is the brimstone (Is.30:33) spoken of in the second death and here it is called the BREATH OF LIFE. Now why would that which is seen as part of the make up of the second death be called the breath of life?

To understand why a part of the second death is called the breath of life let’s look at the meaning of the word BREATH.

It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.

When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE unto MAN it was for the destruction of the MAN that he was by birthing in the MAN of dust Jesus Christ.

It is because of this MAN became a living soul.

Now living soul and living creature come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.

The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.
 
Old 05-02-2010, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,440,091 times
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Since the main characters in the bible are Jewish shouldn't we ask the opinion of a the Jews? In the Jewish Encyclopedia I read that Sheol is a simile for Jealousy... Found here: JewishEncyclopedia.com - SHEOL

What does that mean exactly?
 
Old 05-02-2010, 11:14 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,730,389 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Matthew 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

1 Corinthians 11:32
When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
I don't have time right now to address all the verses you posted, but for starters, the first three verses you talked about are talking to BELIEVERS! People continue to post verses where the believers are being chastised, and try to pass them off as being addressed to unbelievers. "You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel." You can't see the forest for the trees. You need to read the context to know what it's talking about.

Matthew 23:

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. 37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

1 Corinthians 11:
17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

Romans 2:
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."
 
Old 05-02-2010, 01:05 PM
 
309 posts, read 296,720 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Thanks, but I just explained to you what it really means. I too can see where your confusion if coming from. You averted the whole point, that he acended with the captives with him. Who did he ascend with? Last time you people said he acended alone, so what is it this time?

PS Paul called himself "a prisoner of the Lord" in the same book and same chapter, so maybe you are reaching a little trying find with the word "prisoner" or "captive" in other books where it is used in other context, and then linking that meaning to this chapter as if it mean something other than believers. That is an old univeralist tactic of deception and has been exposed many times before.

Ephesians 4 :1 I, therefore, the prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live worthily of the calling with which you have been called

When a believer dies, the body goes to physical grave, the soul goes to heaven. This is why Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. Before Christ death the believers in Hades were 'captive' because they could not yet come to the presense of Christ.
Yes, you are correct when you say "Last time you people said he acended alone.....", so an answer to your question "so what is it this time?" remains as "He STILL ASCENDED ALONE FINN".

As with me 'reaching' with the word 'captive' to "mean something other than believers." I am doing no such thing, where did you see that?? The captives ARE the believers FINN as your say yourself.

You never quote all the verses that makes this one “to be absent from the body IS to be absent from the Lord” understandable. So let quote them for all to see.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Notice that there are a few CONTRASTS here, we have…

Verse 6 states that Finn ‘always’ (Gk: at all times) is confident KNOWING (this is NOT Faith, you KNOW that you are in your fleshly body) that while he is at home (present) in the body he is absent from the Lord

Verse 7 “BUT”(see Gk: gar) Finn walks by FAITH (belief), not by sight (KNOWING)

Verse 8 “Now, Moreover” (Gk: de…this word isn’t even translated in the KJV) Finn, BY FAITH, is confident and willing (to THINK it is) RATHER (better) to be absent from the body, AND to be present with the Lord.

Verse 9 “Through” (Gr: dio) this (KNOWING and FAITH) Finn ALSO (Gk: kai….not even translated in the KJV) STRIVES, whether he is present (IN the body or IN the Lord) or absent (FROM the body or FROM the Lord) to be PLEASING to the Lord.

All this is saying Finn, is that it is BETTER to live your life ‘as IF’ you THINK you are ALREADY with Him and out of your “flesh”. Flesh dies daily Finn. The KNOWING is WITHOUT a doubt. This takes NO FAITH at all. FAITH on the other hand is to THINK/believe that you are ALREADY DEAD (out of the body) and ALREADY in Christ as the scripture says to think. It is a BETTER thing to THINK/believe (which is ‘living by faith’) RATHER than live by the flesh (which is KNOWING only by SIGHT)

To use the English word “is” in verse 8 is a gross misrepresentation. I am confident that you never find the Greek ‘cumulative sense’ word “kai” translated as the ‘descriptive, possessive’ IS any where in the scriptures or Ancient Greek writings. It is the a HERETIC thing to take the phrase “willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” and BLATANTLY strip off the words “willing rather” and change a ‘cumulative’ word AND to a ‘possessive, descriptive’ word IS just to come up with a doctrine that says “to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord.”. It is downrite embarrassing Finn. Ask any self respecting Greek teacher and he will tell you so.[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
 
Old 05-02-2010, 01:29 PM
 
309 posts, read 296,720 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Hi Joe. Although I might not agree with everything you wrote here I do agree that man was created a dust man. Here is something I wrote a few years ago regarding this. Anyway hope it is helpful in your studies


Breath of life

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Many believe that this is speaking of how natural man was created.
They believe that God took dust from the ground, breathed His spirit into the dust and that this union of dust and spirit is the make up of man who is then called a living soul.

But is that what God said?

Let’s look closely at this scripture.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground.

It says plainly here that God formed MAN of the dust of the ground before He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and before MAN became a living soul.

Now we know that man is made up of spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This man of dust already had a spirit, soul and body, for is not man made up of spirit, soul and body?

And if this man of dust spoken of here did not already have a spirit, soul and body can it be rightly called man?

Cannot we understand by this that man was already created? And that God is doing something other then creating a natural man here?

Brothers and sisters God is not creating a natural man here as in the creation of the first man Adam, but He is shaping man to be in His image and likeness here.

We read in Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The word created here comes from the Hebrew word bara and formed from Genesis 2:7 is the Hebrew word yatsar.

So why does the scriptures use two different words if they are both dealing with the creation of man?

Because the man being formed in Genesis 2:7 finds his fulfillment in Gen.1:26-27 in being created in the image and likeness of God.

Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay.

Genesis 2:7 is telling us the process of how we are being formed into the image and likeness of God, it is not telling us how natural man was created, but it is telling us how the spiritual man is being created.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now we have always read this scripture (me included) as to how MAN was originally created. And I believe we have been understanding it all wrong.
This is not speaking about how man was originally created, but rather it is speaking of how God is making the MAN he originally created into His image and likeness.

Now when God formed MAN He formed MAN from the dust of the ground.
Now this MAN God formed from the dust of the ground already had a spirit, soul, and body. He is the flesh man or the old man or the man of sin, a living creature/beast man that lives unto itself, this is that MAN we are/were before God breathes the breath of life unto MAN.

Now Gods breath is the brimstone (Is.30:33) spoken of in the second death and here it is called the BREATH OF LIFE. Now why would that which is seen as part of the make up of the second death be called the breath of life?

To understand why a part of the second death is called the breath of life let’s look at the meaning of the word BREATH.

It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.

When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE unto MAN it was for the destruction of the MAN that he was by birthing in the MAN of dust Jesus Christ.

It is because of this MAN became a living soul.

Now living soul and living creature come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.

The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.
pneuma......I will comment on this, it will take some time though if you dont mind. At that time maybe we can see clearly that we BOTH may be correct. For there is a "carnal understanding" and a "spiritual understanding" on all things. In my comment to this, I will try to explain, for it will be quite long. I havent been on this site long, so I dont know if there is a way we can chat privately on this. I hope you dont mind waiting though.
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