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Old 05-02-2010, 01:27 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 451,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
pneuma......I will comment on this, it will take some time though if you dont mind. At that time maybe we can see clearly that we BOTH may be correct. For there is a "carnal understanding" and a "spiritual understanding" on all things. In my comment to this, I will try to explain, for it will be quite long. I havent been on this site long, so I dont know if there is a way we can chat privately on this. I hope you dont mind waiting though.
Hi joe, If you discuss with pneuma on this would you mind doing it on the forum as I would be interested and also you never know how many others lurking will benefit from the information that both you and pneuma have.

I too believe that there are multiple views of the scriptures, physical and spiritual.........

Maybe even start a new thread so as not to derail this thread..

 
Old 05-02-2010, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
Reputation: 9399
Quote:
Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa View Post
On 5/2/10 @ 06:11 am Finn_Jarber wrote:

Of all the verses of the Bible that is misquoted this has to be the one MOST misquoted ones of all, most frequently.

You need to revisit and reread it again. That IS NOT what it says.Lets look at it:

II Cor. 5:8--"We are confiden, I say, and willing ['confident AND willing'--two things, not one] rather to be absent from the body, AND TO BE PRESENT ['absent and be present'--two things, not one] with the Lord."

It is "AND to be present," and "IS to be present." This makes it two differnt things, not one and the same thing. Furthermore, "TO BE" is future tense not present tense as in the same instance as death, but rather something that will happen after in the future--AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Paul knew that he would be resurrected from the dead in the future, not that he would be present with the Lord the instant that he died (See I Cor. 15:50-54).

He is not saying is to be

If I were to say that I long to be away from my house and to be at the beach, you would not think I said I long to be away from my house is to be at the beach, or would you?
You die, and your soul will go and be with the Lord. Pretty simple. You'd have to put on a major spin to see it any other way.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 05-02-2010 at 02:20 PM..
 
Old 05-02-2010, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
Reputation: 9399
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
It is the a HERETIC thing to take the phrase “willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” and BLATANTLY strip off the words “willing rather” and change a ‘cumulative’ word AND to a ‘possessive, descriptive’ word IS just to come up with a doctrine that says “to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord.”. It is downrite embarrassing Finn. Ask any self respecting Greek teacher and he will tell you so.[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
LOL. back to bickering and name calling. It never fails, does it.

No matter how you twist and spin it, and call me names, the verse in plain English means that Paul would have been just fine being dead, because that would have meant that he would be in heaven.

Why would he say such thing unless he knew his soul would go and be with the Lord as soon as he died?

PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 05-02-2010 at 02:22 PM..
 
Old 05-02-2010, 03:48 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Since the main characters in the bible are Jewish shouldn't we ask the opinion of a the Jews? In the Jewish Encyclopedia I read that Sheol is a simile for Jealousy... Found here: JewishEncyclopedia.com - SHEOL

What does that mean exactly?
While you are at it ask them if they believe Jesus Christ is their true Messiah.
 
Old 05-02-2010, 03:58 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You die, and your soul will go and be with the Lord. Pretty simple. You'd have to put on a major spin to see it any other way.

I will repeat myself: If when we die we are with the Lord then why did Paul say if there be no resurrection we are more forelorn than all men?

The only time we meet the Lord is when ALL the dead believers are raised from the dead and they as a group meet all the living believers who, as a whole group are changed and they all rise to meet the Lord in the air.

No need for putting any spin on anything. Just believe the scriptures and drop the paganism.
 
Old 05-02-2010, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 3,991,179 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
pneuma......I will comment on this, it will take some time though if you dont mind. At that time maybe we can see clearly that we BOTH may be correct. For there is a "carnal understanding" and a "spiritual understanding" on all things. In my comment to this, I will try to explain, for it will be quite long. I havent been on this site long, so I dont know if there is a way we can chat privately on this. I hope you dont mind waiting though.
Joe go ahead and comment, we can discuss this through email or on the board whichever you prefer, but meerkat brings up a good point in others might be interested also.

Talk to you soon.
 
Old 05-02-2010, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,383,615 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
LOL. back to bickering and name calling. It never fails, does it.

No matter how you twist and spin it, and call me names, the verse in plain English means that Paul would have been just fine being dead, because that would have meant that he would be in heaven.

Why would he say such thing unless he knew his soul would go and be with the Lord as soon as he died?

PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
You say plain and simple but mean dressed up and convoluted.. don't you?

If Paul meant that then why the rest of the verses surrounding that? Was he teaching that you may as well kill yourself so you can be with the Lord?

Was he really saying that he would rather be dead so he can be with the Lord?

Why would he say that when all his letters show a spirit of life... renewed vigor for life here on earth? Paul wasn't looking to prove for you that souls go to heaven... I am sure there are better ways to go about proving your point.
 
Old 05-02-2010, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,383,615 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
While you are at it ask them if they believe Jesus Christ is their true Messiah.
Well he can't be the true messiah if he doesn't save very many from a fate like hell. Hell wins then. I thought the true messiah defeated hell... but what do I know!

I still want to figure out how sheol could be a simile for jealousy...

Any ideas?
 
Old 05-02-2010, 06:16 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Well he can't be the true messiah if he doesn't save very many from a fate like hell. Hell wins then. I thought the true messiah defeated hell... but what do I know!

I still want to figure out how sheol could be a simile for jealousy...

Any ideas?
Maybe Sheol is figured as if it were a person and is jealous in that it wants everyone in its grasp?
 
Old 05-02-2010, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,383,615 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Maybe Sheol is figured as if it were a person and is jealous in that it wants everyone in its grasp?
I see that angle... my problem is the people who wrote it weren't Einstein's, you know? The called the grave a grave... it may have come to mean a collective place where the dead went but the word itself is grave or rather, unseen... so since they didn't see it then they were speculating as to it being a place as well... so in that case I can see that they could have been anthropomorphizing the grave/death, but does that make it truth?

Does the grave become Jealous? How can it when there are only two things in life we never overcome..... DEATH AND TAXES!

So the grave always gets his man, so that is my line of thought. Why is the grave (that gets every human eventually) a simile for jealousy?

I just can't seem to wrap my mind around that... it's bugging me LOLIF (laugh out loud in frustration... just made that one up for this occasion )
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