U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
Old 05-04-2010, 06:41 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,154,173 times
Reputation: 58115
I like the way he talks Legoman. Not sure I agree with him, but he was interesting to listen to.

 
Old 05-04-2010, 06:45 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,154,173 times
Reputation: 58115
So, I was thinking.............where does the soul go? It can't possibly stay with the body....I mean, what about people who are cremated? Are souls just wandering around aimlessly half asleep? I still believe the soul either goes to heaven or hades after death....nothing else makes sense.
 
Old 05-04-2010, 07:00 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,821,961 times
Reputation: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
So, I was thinking.............where does the soul go? It can't possibly stay with the body....I mean, what about people who are cremated? Are souls just wandering around aimlessly half asleep? I still believe the soul either goes to heaven or hades after death....nothing else makes sense.
The soul dies (The soul that sinneth dies according to Ezekiel).

When we speak of sheol and hades, it has this meaning of grave or "realm of the dead", but it also has a meaning of "unseen". They go to the unseen place - no one knows exactly what or where it is - it is unseen.

But the idea is if you die, you are dead, so there is effectively no consciousness and from your perspective there is no time passing either. The bible likens death to "sleep" in a number of places. It is a very deep sleep - I believe when you die, it will be like you are a having the best sleep of your "life" , and the next moment you will be aware of will be you awakening to the resurrection - just like when you have a really good sleep at night - you put your head down on the pillow and the next moment you are awake refreshed in the morning.

When we look at how God created man, we can see that man does not have a soul, but instead he became a soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That verse might help your understanding Ilene. God took dust to make a body, He breathed life ("spirit") in the body, and the man became a soul. He wasn't a soul to begin with, he only became a soul with the combination of body and spirit (breath). Take away either the body or the spirit (breath), and the soul would die - cease. Yet the soul can still be restored with a new body and spirit. When we are resurrected we will be given new spiritual bodies.

Hope that helps.
 
Old 05-04-2010, 07:06 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,821,961 times
Reputation: 647
Refer back to the OP. That is why scripture describes sheol and death like this:

- a place of darkness
- a place of silence
- all go there in peace
- it is like a bed where we sleep
- it is a place where death is
- people are not alive there
- there is no device or knowledge there
- the dead do not know anything there


Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Job 17:3 If I wait, the grave [SHEOL] is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

Job 21:13 They [THE WICKED] spend their years in prosperity
and go down to the grave [SHEOL] in peace.

Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave [SHEOL] those which have sinned.

Psalm 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave [SHEOL].

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave [SHEOL]? Selah.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [SHEOL], whither thou goest.

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave [SHEOL]; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave [SHEOL], I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell [SHEOL], behold, thou art there


The soul that dies is DEAD, like it is sleeping in peace, in silence and darkness. I believe that is where our expression "REST IN PEACE" comes from.
 
Old 05-04-2010, 07:12 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,154,173 times
Reputation: 58115
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The soul dies (The soul that sinneth dies according to Ezekiel).

When we speak of sheol and hades, it has this meaning of grave or "realm of the dead", but it also has a meaning of "unseen". They go to the unseen place - no one knows exactly what or where it is - it is unseen.

But the idea is if you die, you are dead, so there is effectively no consciousness and from your perspective there is no time passing either. The bible likens death to "sleep" in a number of places. It is a very deep sleep - I believe when you die, it will be like you are a having the best sleep of your "life" , and the next moment you will be aware of will be you awakening to the resurrection - just like when you have a really good sleep at night - you put your head down on the pillow and the next moment you are awake refreshed in the morning.

When we look at how God created man, we can see that man does not have a soul, but instead he became a soul.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That verse might help your understanding Ilene. God took dust to make a body, He breathed life ("spirit") in the body, and the man became a soul. He wasn't a soul to begin with, he only became a soul with the combination of body and spirit (breath). Take away either the body or the spirit (breath), and the soul would die - cease. Yet the soul can still be restored with a new body and spirit. When we are resurrected we will be given new spiritual bodies.

Hope that helps.
Yes, that helps. Thanks Legoman. I guess I just don't like the idea of not being aware of my surroundings.....I don't like the idea of "soul sleep". I still think the body is dead and the soul is alive and aware of what is happening. I may be wrong about that but it's what I like to believe. I just don't think any of us can really "know" this side of life.
 
Old 05-04-2010, 07:34 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,154,173 times
Reputation: 58115
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Refer back to the OP. That is why scripture describes sheol and death like this:

- a place of darkness
- a place of silence
- all go there in peace
- it is like a bed where we sleep
- it is a place where death is
- people are not alive there
- there is no device or knowledge there
- the dead do not know anything there


Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Job 17:3 If I wait, the grave [SHEOL] is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

Job 21:13 They [THE WICKED] spend their years in prosperity
and go down to the grave [SHEOL] in peace.

Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave [SHEOL] those which have sinned.

Psalm 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave [SHEOL].

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave [SHEOL]? Selah.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [SHEOL], whither thou goest.

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave [SHEOL]; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave [SHEOL], I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell [SHEOL], behold, thou art there


The soul that dies is DEAD, like it is sleeping in peace, in silence and darkness. I believe that is where our expression "REST IN PEACE" comes from.
You're making a good argument and it's not that I don't think that you might have something there it's just that I can't wrap my head around it. Maybe it's because I nearly died (I think I did die) one time and it was quite the picture of darkness. Nothing. I don't remember a thing from the time I went out to when I awoke. Maybe I was just unconscious but I did not and do not like the idea of nothingness. I want to hang out with the other "souls" and do heavenly things until the Lord returns. But I guess it's not about what I want, it's about what is real and death just is a little too "real" for me. I spent a lot of years incoherent and "blacking" out from drugs or alcohol so consciousness is just a very important thing to me now.
 
Old 05-04-2010, 08:04 AM
 
78 posts, read 57,128 times
Reputation: 39
i believe the scriptures that tell us that when we die, thoughts perish, we are dead, not living somewhere in another realm.

i did not always believe this but i have always had this question, but never an answer that makes sense from the many pastors that i have asked:

if we go to heaven immediately at death, why is it necessary for Jesus to come back to get us?? i understand He comes back to get the ones still alive at the time of His return, but the scriptures tells He comes back to get those that haved died (the ressurection), that is one part that does not make sense.
 
Old 05-04-2010, 08:18 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,821,961 times
Reputation: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
You're making a good argument and it's not that I don't think that you might have something there it's just that I can't wrap my head around it. Maybe it's because I nearly died (I think I did die) one time and it was quite the picture of darkness. Nothing. I don't remember a thing from the time I went out to when I awoke. Maybe I was just unconscious but I did not and do not like the idea of nothingness. I want to hang out with the other "souls" and do heavenly things until the Lord returns. But I guess it's not about what I want, it's about what is real and death just is a little too "real" for me. I spent a lot of years incoherent and "blacking" out from drugs or alcohol so consciousness is just a very important thing to me now.
Hi Ilene, yes its tough to wrap your head around something that you are not used to thinking about in that way. Give it some time, and go back and reread the scriptures. It will make sense in time.

What you experienced would agree with what Ecc 9 says: the dead don't know anything. Now I don't know what you experienced, whether it was death or unconsciousness, but that is how the OT describes sheol and death.

Near death experiences are another interesting phenomenon to investigate. Many people describe blackness followed by a light after calling out to God. A few (Mary Baxter etc) describe a literal hellfire with flames. Its hard to say what these are exactly. The interesting point is: anyone who had an NDE, came back! They all escaped "hell" (if that is what they think it was) even though we are commonly taught "no one can escape from hell once you are there".

Anyway, I don't think anyone really knows for sure. But if we are bible believing Christians, we have to go with what scripture says. Scripture says sheol is a place of darkness and silence which is like sleep, and the dead don't know anything there.
 
Old 05-04-2010, 08:29 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,821,961 times
Reputation: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa View Post

if we go to heaven immediately at death, why is it necessary for Jesus to come back to get us?? i understand He comes back to get the ones still alive at the time of His return, but the scriptures tells He comes back to get those that haved died (the ressurection), that is one part that does not make sense.

Yes that is a good point. Why do we need a resurrection if we are already "alive" somewhere else at death? The so-called "immortal soul" actually makes a mockery of the purpose of the resurrection. Some would say it is only a "resurrection of the body", but Paul says different. It is a "resurrection of the DEAD":

1 Cor 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

Furthermore why are the unsaved sent to "hell" at death, only to be resurrected and judged later, where it is determined that YES, they need to go back to "hell"? Some say they need to be given new bodies so they can feel the pain of the lake of fire forever. That is just sick IMHO.

This whole idea of people being alive in hades/sheol is pagan in origin. It came from the Greek's (mythology - hades), who picked it up from the pagan Egyptians. If you study the parable of the rich man and lazarus and the history behind it, you will see that some believe Jesus was just "satiring" the familiar pagan concept. If the rich man was "alive" in sheol - it would contradict everything the old testament says about sheol.

I would recommend reading these links again, if you haven't already:
L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 16A
L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 16B
The Origins of Endless Punishment
Lazarus and the Rich Man
 
Old 05-04-2010, 08:36 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,154,173 times
Reputation: 58115
Quote:
Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa View Post
i believe the scriptures that tell us that when we die, thoughts perish, we are dead, not living somewhere in another realm.

i did not always believe this but i have always had this question, but never an answer that makes sense from the many pastors that i have asked:

if we go to heaven immediately at death, why is it necessary for Jesus to come back to get us?? i understand He comes back to get the ones still alive at the time of His return, but the scriptures tells He comes back to get those that haved died (the ressurection), that is one part that does not make sense.
You make a good point dipidydoodaa.....maybe death is as Legoman says, or the Bible says.......it's just wishful thinking on my part. It's just that I can't help but think of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus and that they were both very much "alive". I believe it to be a true representation of "life" after death.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.



All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top