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Old 04-29-2010, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Hagerman, Idaho
2,223 posts, read 4,849,040 times
Reputation: 2088

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You would have to be purely delusional to think that even ONE word of the Torah, the very book that the Messiah AND HIS Talmadim taught from was done away with. Just read Matthew 5:17-20 to get a clue, and in the end it was stated in Rev:22 "Blessed are they that DO MY commandments for they will enter through the gates of the city and have the right to the Tree of Life". I have NO idea how the xtians ignore these simple truths. They are teaching "another gospel" other than that which the Messiah taught that is for SURE. That's what happens when you read distorted and altered Greco Roman translations of the original Aramaic and Hebrew....it gets tossed and altered till it is unrecognizable. How sad for many as they will never read it as it was intended.

 
Old 04-29-2010, 10:52 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,412,485 times
Reputation: 682
Regarding the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, we need to consider something.

For hundreds and thousands of years, the only scriptures people had were the old testament. They knew nothing of this story that Christ told of a rich man in hades (sheol in greek) and Lazarus going to "Abraham's bosom".

All they knew about was sheol. And they knew that:
- sheol was a place where the dead rested
- it is likened to a "house" where you make your "bed" and "sleep"
- all sinners, all people go to sheol
- sheol is silent, there is no knowledge or work or device there
- even God is in sheol

That is what they knew about sheol. Now is it likely that Jesus came along and totally contradicted everything they knew from the old testament by suggesting a rich man was alive and talking in hades (sheol)? Or is it likely that Jesus was telling a parable that had some other meaning?

The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus has been covered in other threads previously. These two links give a good explanation of the parable without contradicting the old testament meaning of sheol:

L. Ray Smith - Lazarus and the Rich Man
Commentary - The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man
 
Old 04-29-2010, 10:59 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,758,453 times
Reputation: 58198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
How does it explain the rich man was being refined into a new creature?

Pay attention to the ending of the parable: "He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’

The only way to stay out of that place, and worse, the lake of fire (permanent hell) is to listen and believe, but Abraham says many do not listen and believe. They won't listen even if they saw someone being raised form the dead.

"Faith comes from hearing the message." Rom 10:17 And Jesus said, "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:46,47
It explains a lot seeing how the rich man was still able to speak and ask for "human" things.....It speaks volumes about how he had not yet been transformed. Just because the rich man's brothers wouldn't listen if Lazarus were to return does not mean they wouldn't eventually listen. I'm not buying the eternal hell thing anymore....so you're wasting your breath. All I can do is suggest you study it out like I'm doing.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 11:02 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,758,453 times
Reputation: 58198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
But Finn, first of all, there is not any scripture which states one goes to the lake of fire for not believing Christ died for their sins.

Also the rich man didn't go to Hades because he didn't believe. He went there only because he had gotten good things in this life. And the only reason Lazarus went to Abraham is he received evil things in this life. So it is not based upon believe but upon your status in life.

Also, the statement is true that: They won't listen even if they saw someone being raised form the dead.
Why? Because it all depends upon God who gets faith and who does not.
So why would God send someone to hell for not having faith when, after all, it is up to God to give it in the first place?
Yeah, what Eusebius said!!
 
Old 04-29-2010, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,541 posts, read 31,944,414 times
Reputation: 9418
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
All they knew about was sheol. And they knew that:
- sheol was a place where the dead rested
- it is likened to a "house" where you make your "bed" and "sleep"
- all sinners, all people go to sheol
- sheol is silent, there is no knowledge or work or device there
- even God is in sheol
How can you claim "this is all they knew"? How would you know what other people knew? Considering how often Sheol is mentioned in OT I'd say they knew everything about it.

And even if they didn't know, then I suppose they found out as soon as they arrived there The rich man didn't know, but according to Abraham, that was only because he didn't listen to Moses and Prophets. See, Moses knew, and the prophets knew, so everyone knew. Happy?

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 04-29-2010 at 11:28 AM..
 
Old 04-29-2010, 11:07 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,758,453 times
Reputation: 58198
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
He was able not only to speak but was still a cognizant being who yearned for something he realized he did not have.
Exactly!! Until you really read, I mean REALLY read and understand what is being said in the parable, it's easy to view this as a permanent thing. I no longer believe it is.

Quote:
I don't believe it is. I believe it was at one time, but has not been since Jesus visited the Spirit World after His death but before His resurrection. There are still people there right now who are feeling exactly the same way the rich man was feeling.
That makes sense.....that Jesus would have bridged that chasm between heaven and hell just like he bridged the gap between us and God.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,541 posts, read 31,944,414 times
Reputation: 9418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
It explains a lot seeing how the rich man was still able to speak and ask for "human" things.....It speaks volumes about how he had not yet been transformed. Just because the rich man's brothers wouldn't listen if Lazarus were to return does not mean they wouldn't eventually listen. I'm not buying the eternal hell thing anymore....so you're wasting your breath. All I can do is suggest you study it out like I'm doing.
What makes you think there is a process of transformation in Hades? Where did you get that idea? That is all I am asking. What are the dead being transformed into, and do you have Biblical verses to back up the belief that the dead transform into something in Hades?

Yes, I have studied and prayed, and the more I do, the more I believe.

PS Hades/Sheol and eternal hell are not the same place. Nothing in the parable suggests it is permanent. Hades is a temporary place where the dead went, and it had a good side for the righteous, and a bad side for the unrighteous, and the two sides were divided. After Christ died he emptied the good side so as of today it is empty. And it stays empty because believers go to heaven when they die. However the bad side is not empty because unbelievers still go there. After the final judgement those who are in bad side of Hades (unbelievers), will end up in permanent hell aka the lake of fire.

Keep reading, and you will come to see the truth again.

After his death Christ decended to Hades, made a proclamation to his people, and then acended out of Haded with the believers

Ephesians 4:8-10

This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men." 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 04-29-2010 at 12:00 PM..
 
Old 04-29-2010, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
How can you claim "this is all they knew"? How would you know what other people knew? Considering how often Sheol is mentioned in OT I'd say they knew everything about it.

But considering they didn't know, then I suppose they found out as soon as they arrived there
They knew how to rub two sticks together to make fire too...

So sure... they thought the world was flat and beneath the world was the abode of the dead... and the heavens above contained the abode of the spirits in the stars.

Now we know better, DON'T we? So then why are we trusting in their primitive accounts of the afterlife when they had no more proof of it than do we... however we do have more knowledge about the way the planet works, rotates...etc. So who is more trustworthy? The primitive musings of men 3000+ years ago or now?

I think it is foolish to assume that they had MORE knowledge of these things 3000+ years ago.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
What makes you think there is a process of transformation in Hades? Where did you get that idea? That is all I am asking. What are the dead being transformed into, and do you have Biblical verses to back up the belief that the dead transform into something in Hades?

Yes, I have studies and prayed, and the more I do, the more I believe.

PS Hades/Sheol and eternal hell are not the same place. Nothing in the parable suggests it is permanent. Hades is a temporary place where the dead went, and it had a good side for the righteous, and a bad side for the unrighteous, and the two sides were divided. After Christ died, believers go to heaven when they die, and unbelievers still go to Hades. After the final judgement those who are still in Hades (unbelievers), will end up in permanent hell aka the lake of fire.
It is obvious that you think you have all the information you need... I find it funny... amusing rather, that you want scripture to back up Ilene's statement of opinion and belief but then you go and say, matter-of-fact-like, that Hades is still for unbelievers and believers go to heaven...

Where is your scripture to back this up? OH that is right.. it is your opinion.... In the NT it is death/hades that is conquered by Christ yet you say it is the abode of unbelievers still when in the OT it was simply for all dead people. You change it from the original meaning while accusing others of the very same thing (erroneously IMO).

I wonder if people even realize what it is that they are doing.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 11:36 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,758,453 times
Reputation: 58198
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
It is obvious that you think you have all the information you need... I find it funny... amusing rather, that you want scripture to back up Ilene's statement of opinion and belief but then you go and say, matter-of-fact-like, that Hades is still for unbelievers and believers go to heaven...

Where is your scripture to back this up? OH that is right.. it is your opinion.... In the NT it is death/hades that is conquered by Christ yet you say it is the abode of unbelievers still when in the OT it was simply for all dead people. You change it from the original meaning while accusing others of the very same thing (erroneously IMO).

I wonder if people even realize what it is that they are doing.
Thanks Kat for answering that.....now I don't have to!!
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