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Old 05-04-2010, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
33,218 posts, read 10,686,174 times
Reputation: 4155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
All I have to do is look at the scriptures, the word hell is not in them.
Oh, then that must mean it does not exist. LOL. Word "rapture" does not exit in Bible either, so I suppose that means it won't happen either.

 
Old 05-04-2010, 02:16 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 3,976,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
It is the topic of this thread.

What you call "twisting and spinning" is simply showing what scripture says, and simply showing how the mainstream doctrine of "hell" falls. To me this would seem to be a rather important thing to let people know about, especially considering the pain and suffering many people go through now because they believe there is a literal place of endless torment. Perhaps it is not important to you to understand this. If you want to contribute to the thread, maybe you would actually address the posts instead of throwing out jabs about "twisting and spinning".

I found it on page 8, I believe Finn is referring to Eph 4:8-10:

Finn_Jarber said this:
When Christ died on the cross he went to paradise aka good side of Hades aka Abrahams bosom, and led the righteous dead out of that place.

Ephesians 4:8-10 This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions ? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

He took that side of Hades with him to heaven, and left the bad side where is it.
It never said "he took the souls of Christians from the good side of Hades" ...

Again this is simply taking verses out of the greater context of the scriptures in their entirety IMHO ...

In order to rightly divide the word, we must discover how all the scriptures harmonize with each other.

Does it say that those captives which he has led ascended with him then and there at that time? No it doesn't ... We must see what the rest of scriptures have to say about being freed from bondage ... What were the captives in bondage to? Sin and or corruption ... The scriptures speak over and over again about how through Christs death and resurrection, the price has been paid for sin. So that in Christ we are no longer in bondage to or captives of sin and Corruption(Rom 8,Gal 4,Gal 5,Heb 2). The chains of captivity to sin have been broken, and we are now led in this waking life by Christ according to his spirit. That is not to say that when we die we still conscious and alive with Christ in heaven away from our bodies.

I understand the argument that they give though i do not agree. Again in this case i can and will admit that i may be wrong, however when it says in 1Th 4:14, "asleep in Christ", i believe what it says, that they are asleep. Sleep has to do with consciousness. When you are asleep you are not conscious ... So if they are "asleep in Christ" when they are dead they are not "conscious with Christ" when they are dead now are they? Also when it says that God shall bring with him those who are asleep in Christ it can and i believe should be translated as Bring forth ... Bring forth from what? Bring forth from the grave ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-04-2010 at 02:46 PM..
 
Old 05-04-2010, 02:21 PM
 
6,170 posts, read 3,568,519 times
Reputation: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
It never said "he took the souls of Christians from the good side of Hades" ...

Again this is simply taking verses out of the greater context of the scriptures in their entirety IMHO ...

In order to rightly divide the word, we must discover how all the scriptures harmonize with each other.

Does it say that those captives which he has led ascended with him then and there at that time? No it doesn't ... We must see what the rest of scriptures have to say about being freed from bondage ... What were the captives in bondage to? Sin and or corruption ... The scriptures speak over and over again about how through Christs death and resurrection, the price has been paid for sin. So that in Christ we are no longer in bondage to or captives of sin and Corruption(Rom 8,Gal 4,Gal 5,Heb 2). The chains of captivity to sin have been broken, and we are now led in this waking life by Christ according to his spirit. That is not to say that when we die we still conscious and alive with Christ in heaven away from our bodies.

I understand the argument that they give though i do not agree. Again in this case i can and will admit that i may be wrong, however when it says in 1Th 4:14, "asleep in Christ", i believe what it says, that they are asleep. Sleep has to do with consciousness. When you are asleep you are not conscious ... So if they are "asleep in Christ" when they are dead they are not "conscious with Christ" when they are dead now are they? Also when it say that God shall bring with him those who are asleep in Christ it can and i believe should be translated as Bring forth ... Bring forth from what? Bring forth from the grave ...
I agree it most definitely does not say that He took the Christian souls from the good side of hades... you really have to read into the text to even see that.

Ironmaw, have you seen Ray Smith's take on this verse? He talks about it here in response to this email:
L. Ray Smith - Emails 6

Just interested in your thoughts.

YLT says: `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,'


 
Old 05-04-2010, 02:22 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,133,922 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Oh, then that must mean it does not exist. LOL. Word "rapture" does not exit in Bible either, so I suppose that means it won't happen either.

Hell is not in the scriptures.

What are you talking about? Rapture? I think there is another thread for that.
 
Old 05-04-2010, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
33,218 posts, read 10,686,174 times
Reputation: 4155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
It never said "he took the souls of Christians from the good side of Hades" ...

Again this is simply taking verses out of the greater context of the scriptures in their entirety IMHO ...

In order to rightly divide the word, we must discover how all the scriptures harmonize with each other.

Does it say that those captives which he has led ascended with him then and there at that time? No it doesn't ... We must see what the rest of scriptures have to say about being freed from bondage ... What were the captives in bondage to? Sin and or corruption ... The scriptures speak over and over again about how through Christs death and resurrection, the price has been paid for sin. So that in Christ we are no longer in bondage to or captives of sin and Corruption(Rom 8,Gal 4,Gal 5,Heb 2). The chains of captivity to sin have been broken, and we are now led in this waking life by Christ according to his spirit. That is not to say that when we die we still conscious and alive with Christ in heaven away from our bodies.

I understand the argument that they give though i do not agree. Again in this case i can and will admit that i may be wrong, however when it says in 1Th 4:14, "asleep in Christ", i believe what it says, that they are asleep. Sleep has to do with consciousness. When you are asleep you are not conscious ... So if they are "asleep in Christ" when they are dead they are not "conscious with Christ" when they are dead now are they? Also when it say that God shall bring with him those who are asleep in Christ it can and i believe should be translated as Bring forth ... Bring forth from what? Bring forth from the grave ...
Why don't you take a word from each book and parse them together to form a sentence that supports your agenda. The way you pick and choose, you can make the Bible say anything under the sun.

The Bible calls servants of the Lord "Prisoners", including the Ephensians the very same chapter that we are talking about, so the "captives" in this context means dead believers. They were in Hades held captive with no access to God, until Christ came. Nice try....

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles

Philemon 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother...

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 05-04-2010 at 02:58 PM..
 
Old 05-04-2010, 02:41 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 3,976,665 times
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It is so obvious to those who honestly examine the evidences in Scripture without any pretense concerning these things.

In the language of the OT there is no mention of any hell or eternal torment at all ... The wages of sin are simply death. Just about the only place in the OT that could be used as an argument for ET is Dan 12:2 ... Yet even this scripture says nothing about torment or suffering. Contempt/shame is the meaning of the word used in that scripture, and does not by itself imply either hell or torment. Also it has been shown that the word which is translated as "everlasting" in that verse, owlam, in fact does not mean everlasting, but only "unknown" or "hidden", or literally "beyond the horizon".

Then all the sudden in the new testament, it appears that Hell is a reality due to the many various mistranslations of the words hades, gehenna and tartaroo ... Hades itself is a direct translation of the Hebrew word sheol in the Greek, which means literally unseen, and is a reference to being dead and in the grave. Yet because they translate this word as hell, and also the word Gehenna, they link the judgments of Gehenna with the word Hades. And the profane laity is further misled concerning this false correlation by the parable of the rich man and Lazarus wherein Christ uses the beliefs of the pharisees in order to conceal his message concerning the fate of Israel and their destruction and separation from the legacy and blessing of Abraham.

I can understand the confusion and deception that this subtly conceived and executed deception of mistranslations and traditional interpretations causes for the profane and uneducated masses when reading the scriptures, especially under the influence of traditional orthodox fundamentalist dogma, and the tutelage of traditional fundamentalist and orthodox teachers who subscribe to and profit from those traditional dogmatic interpretations. I also do sympathize with them and i realize that it has a large role to play in the hardening of the hearts and minds of most confessed fundamentalist and orthodox Christians who so eagerly defend the doctrine of ET as if it were paramount to their own faith and since of divine justice. They are so obviously brainwashed into believing and desiring that most people who ever lived suffer in eternal torment in order to feel vindicated for their own service. However, the fact that these "Christians" so obviously do not understand the most fundamental precepts of Christianity, those precepts being love thy neighbor and they enemy, and do not return evil for evil, and bless those who persecute you and abuse you, is evidence of the fact that they are so brainwashed and do not truly understand the real meaning of the scriptures to which they so dearly cling.

Eventually they will understand ... Remember all who are representing the truth of UR, it is not our job to convince anyone of the truth, it is only our job to represent that truth according to the scriptures so that we provide a witness of it for those whom God would deliver at any time from the bondage of false religion and the traditions of men.


Amen and God bless ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-04-2010 at 02:51 PM..
 
Old 05-04-2010, 02:44 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,133,922 times
Reputation: 626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Why don't you take a word from each book and parse them together to form a sentence that supports your agenda. The way you pick and choose, you can make the Bible say anything under the sun.


You mean like Hell and Rapture? Wait, what books are those words in?
 
Old 05-04-2010, 02:44 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 3,976,665 times
Reputation: 865
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I agree it most definitely does not say that He took the Christian souls from the good side of hades... you really have to read into the text to even see that.

Ironmaw, have you seen Ray Smith's take on this verse? He talks about it here in response to this email:
L. Ray Smith - Emails 6

Just interested in your thoughts.

YLT says: `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,'


I check out that link and get right back to you ...

(KJV) ...
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Indeed, it means the same thing in this regard, that he broke the chain of our captivity to corruption. That is to say he made a captive of the captivity to which we were in bondage, which was sin and corruption.
 
Old 05-04-2010, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
33,218 posts, read 10,686,174 times
Reputation: 4155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
You mean like Hell and Rapture? Wait, what books are those words in?
Either you believe, or you don't. It's a choise.
 
Old 05-04-2010, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,357,862 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Either you believe, or you don't. It's a choise.
If it were truth there would be no need to choose.

If Hell and Rapture don't exist in the bible then what you are doing is INFERRING their existence in the first place by combining verses to suit your agenda...

Rapture means elation, not people flying into the heavens. Hell...well what does hell mean anyway? The only resource we have to describe 'hell' is pagan cultures such as greek mythology because the bible doesn't describe a fiery place where people are tortured forever. AND that is the topic at hand...

Why choose to believe in something that doesn't exist? And if you do choose to believe in 'hell' even though it is NOT found in scripture then you may as well believe in dragons, pegasus, etc. All of which came from the imagination of humans and not scripture!
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