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Wow. Why are you so disrespectful Finn? Not only to me, but to Ilene. Sheesh.
You make vague accusations about "twisting the truth" and "subterfuge", yet it is you who fail to address the scripture and fail to address the argument. So far I have not seen you actually address the scriptures I have posted, you simply whine about "twisting the truth" and claim there is a hell because you somehow know there is a hell. If it can be shown in this thread that there is no hell, why continue to claim there must be a hell?
It is you who munge and confuse words together suggesting there is a "temporary" hell and a "permanent" hell when the scriptures speak of no such thing. The lake of fire is not "hell" either - the scriptures never call it that. Sorry if I have offended you by pointing this out, but it is clear if you actually look at the scriptures with an honest and open mind.
You need to understand that all scripture is in harmony. You cannot use Luke 16 or Eph 4:8 to contradict what the OT says on sheol, because then you are claiming the bible contradicts itself! The solution is to study both passages and realize that you may be misinterpreting one of them. In this case the parable of the rich man is grossly misunderstood. By nature, parables are not always easy to understand. The multitude didn't understand Jesus' parables, even His own disciples didn't understand His parables until He explained them.
The purpose of this thread is to unravel and untwist the mainstream teaching of hell, based on what scripture actually says. So I say again you are simply being disruptive by making ad-hominem attacks and accusations. Why don't you try to be more constructive - if you disagree explain why and address the points made instead of throwing out veiled accusations and rhetoric. But I suppose when you cannot defend your own doctrine it is easier to complain about and accuse others.
Blessed are they who Finn has on his ignore list for, yea, I tell ye the truth, such are not tormented by his accusations and endless inuendos.
That's pretty dishonest of you. Go back and see what question I was replying to. You claimed there was no such thing as invitation in the Bible, and my answer proved you dead wrong.
But now that you mention it, the story ends with a person being cast out of the party into a place where weeping and gnashing of teeth:
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
There is adultery in the bible too... does that mean it's taught?
People receive invitations to weddings. It's called using a real life event as an analogy. You know... to parallel.... does that mean there are really invitations out to people to be saved? Highly unlikely... right? Also, if you notice it was those who were invited that didn't show up so it ended with those NOT INVITED that are at the wedding.. how does that fit your paradigm?
Have you ever researched what "weeping and gnashing of teeth" meant to those who wrote it or do you assume it was written from your point of view?
There is a study here: Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth
Blessed are they who Finn has on his ignore list for, yea, I tell ye the truth, such are not tormented by his accusations and endless inuendos.
Indeed. Not to mention his ability to ignore whole sections of a post while throwing out a one-liner. It is clear to me Finn is here just to cause as much distraction and disruption as possible. It is unfortunate for the people here who actually want to have a constructive discussion and study.
Continuing on with the topic... so far we have looked at how the word "hell" is translated: as hades/sheol, which is the place of the dead; and as gehenna, which was a literal valley that is used as a symbol of judgment. These are translated as the word "hell" in some bibles. Hades/sheol is ultimately destroyed, when it is thrown into the lake of fire along with death. Hades has no victory because Christ destroys it.
However some people seem to think that the lake of fire represents or is a kind of "hell", even though it is never called that in scripture. So I would like to go through all the scriptures on the lake of fire - there are not too many of them so I think I can get them all in this one post - we will see what the scriptures actually say about the lake of fire.
Understanding what the lake of fire is NOT
Rev 20:15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Does Rev 20:15 say how long anyone is in the lake of fire for? No, it isn't specified.
Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Again is Rev 21:8 determining the length of the punishment for all liars and other undesirables? NO. They all have their part (a portion) in the lake of fire, which is the second death. (Remember Jesus defeats death - would this not include the second death?). So concluding eternal torment from Rev 21:8 is again not possible.
Rev 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
How about Rev 14? Surely it teaches eternal torment for most of humanity? Actually, no it doesn't. Read it closely. It is only the smoke of their torment that rises forever and ever (not the torment itself). This could be symbolic of torment that brings about a permanent change. Even the words "no rest day or night" don't necessarily indicate eternity, because there is a condition on the "no rest day or night": its only for those who worship the beast and receive his mark. If one stops worshiping the beast, or disowns the mark, then it could be reasonable to say they would again have "rest".
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Finally we have a verse that says something will be tormented forever and ever. Notice who it is that is tormented forever and ever: Satan (not human), the beast (not necessarily human), and the false prophet (not necessarily human either). Remember Revelations is a book with many symbols, the beast and the false prophet are both symbols of something - not necessarily a specific person. Note also that Hades and Death are thrown into the Lake of fire, and they aren't human either. Of course many humans are thrown into the lake of fire, but there is no verse that specifies that a human stays in the lake of fire for eternity.
There we have all the verses in the entire bible that speak specifically on the "lake of fire". What is the total population of beings thrown into it "forever and ever"? THREE. Satan, the beast, and the false prophet, and it is not certain that any of these are human. Also consider that some bibles have translated the duration as "to the ages of the ages", indicating that even these three might not be in the lake for an endless duration. We can study the mistranslation of "forever and ever" elsewhere, but you can see it doesn't even matter when looking at the above.
So based on these verses, what happens to the humans thrown into the lake of fire? We can't say for sure. We know they will experience torment. But for how long and what purpose is still unclear. To determine that we must investigate further and see what the spiritual purpose of fire is, as described by scripture elsewhere.
There is adultery in the bible too... does that mean it's taught?
People receive invitations to weddings. It's called using a real life event as an analogy. You know... to parallel.... does that mean there are really invitations out to people to be saved? Highly unlikely... right? Also, if you notice it was those who were invited that didn't show up so it ended with those NOT INVITED that are at the wedding.. how does that fit your paradigm?
Have you ever researched what "weeping and gnashing of teeth" meant to those who wrote it or do you assume it was written from your point of view?
There is a study here: Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth
Did you even read that link? Here's a quote from it, "Wherever you find the expression "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in the New Testament, know of a certainty that it is a description of the judgment and doom of lost, unsaved men who will not inherit and not even enter the kingdom. It is never used to describe the fate of saved people."
So based on these verses, what happens to the humans thrown into the lake of fire? We can't say for sure. We know they will experience torment. But for how long and what purpose is still unclear. To determine that we must investigate further and see what the spiritual purpose of fire is, as described by scripture elsewhere.
legoman, I don't believe the humans in general will experience torment in the lake of fire because for them it will be death.
Did you even read that link? Here's a quote from it, "Wherever you find the expression "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in the New Testament, know of a certainty that it is a description of the judgment and doom of lost, unsaved men who will not inherit and not even enter the kingdom. It is never used to describe the fate of saved people."
Thanks for posting!! This is so true
Indeed. The place of weeping and gnashing of teeth is also referred to as "furnace of fire". It is none other than the bad side of Hades, where the unbelievers, like the rich man, are being tortured, and were able to see Abraham etc in the good side. Now, of course Abraham is no longer there, so the unbelievers are weeping and gnashing their teeth on their own. And later, during the day of judgement, they will be transferred to the lake of fire, the permanent hell.
Can you imagine the torment they must have felt when they saw Christ descend to good side of Hades and talk to Abraham and other believers, and then see Christ lead them all to heaven. That must haven been the worst of the worst feelings because they knew they had been abandoned in Hades, the furnace of fire.
Indeed. The place of weeping and gnashing of teeth is also referred to as "furnace of fire". It is none other than the bad side of Hades, where the unbelievers, like the rich man, are being tortured, and were able to see Abraham etc in the good side. Now, of course Abraham is no longer there, so the unbelievers are weeping and gnashing their teeth on their own. And later, during the day of judgement, they will be transferred to the lake of fire, the permanent hell.
Can you imagine the torment they must have felt when they saw Christ descend to good side of Hades and talk to Abraham and other believers, and then see Christ lead them all to heaven. That must haven been the worst of the worst feelings because they knew they had been abandoned in Hades, the furnace of fire.
legoman, I don't believe the humans in general will experience torment in the lake of fire because for them it will be death.
Yes I think I read your view before, and to be honest I'm not sure on it. But that's ok.
Rev 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Based on Rev 14 we see it says those who worship the beast and take its mark will be "tormented" with burning sulfur.
But I'm sure you know the word there for "tormented" is the Greek "basanizo" which along with the meaning of "torment", also has the meaning of (from blueletterbible.org): "test with a touchstone, totest for purity"
Furthermore the "sulfur" is actually brimstone which comes from the Greek "theion" which has a meaning of (also from blueletterbible.org): divineincense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
So the lake of fire could in theory have a meaning of a "divine lake of healing and purification". Whether its occupants are dead or not I'm not sure. I believe the "second death" reference is probably a reference to the old man dying for those who are in the lake of fire. The old man must die for all of us at some point... this all gives us additional information as to what the purpose of the lake of fire is. "divine", "purification", "ward off disease", etc.
Also, for those who think this is some kind of literal physical torture in fire forever, notice it is done in the presence of the lamb and His angels. Are we to believe that Christ and the angels watch everyone burn in the lake of fire forever and ever? How sadistic would that be...
ILNC, if Jesus died an "excruciating death to keep us out of hell," who is the "us?" Is the "us" only a chosen few? If not, did Jesus succeed?
The us is anyone who chooses to ask Him to forgive them of their sins and into their heart, ALL not NOT going to do that.
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The solution is to study both passages and realize that you may be misinterpreting one of them. In this case the parable of the rich man is grossly misunderstood. By nature, parables are not always easy to understand. The multitude didn't understand Jesus' parables, even His own disciples didn't understand His parables until He explained them.
