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Old 05-05-2010, 06:05 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,428,183 times
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"Victory on Mount Carmel"

1 King 18:1-46 (Read whole chapter)
21 How long halt ye between two opinions? If the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not.


37
Hear me O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast TURNED THEIR HEARTS BACK AGAIN.

38 Then THE FIRE OF THE LORD FELL, and consumed the burnt sacrifices, and the wood, and the stones, and THE DUST, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, THE LORD, HE IS THE GOD; and THE LORD, HE IS THE GOD.

Blessings...

 
Old 05-05-2010, 06:15 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,696,796 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
What doesn't surprise me anymore is how much of the Bible you don't believe.

What people do not realize (or perhaps won't admit) is that both sides of the issue here believe the bible is true. The difference is concerning what we believe it says.
 
Old 05-05-2010, 06:23 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,435 posts, read 29,606,904 times
Reputation: 29972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
What people do not realize (or perhaps won't admit) is that both sides of the issue here believe the bible is true. The difference is concerning what we believe it says.
And only some of us are listening to the Holy Spirit for the truth.
 
Old 05-05-2010, 06:37 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,696,796 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
And only some of us are listening to the Holy Spirit for the truth.

That's something we ALL have to work on daily.
 
Old 05-05-2010, 06:42 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,435 posts, read 29,606,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
That's something we ALL have to work on daily.
 
Old 05-05-2010, 06:44 PM
 
20,338 posts, read 15,721,845 times
Reputation: 7482
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Two points:

1. Christ came to defeat death. For ALL.
2. Christ came to save those who are "apollymi".

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost [Greek: APOLLYMI].

So being dead or "apollymi" (destroyed) is neither permanent nor irreversible, because Christ came to save these who are dead and destroyed. I think He will be able to fulfill this mission because that is why the Father sent Him: to save the world and take away the sin of the world, and to destroy death and hades (sheol).

Would you be able to address my post #384 on the five verses that describe what the lake of fire is? Thanks.
It is God's desire that all men be saved as per 1 Tim 2:4.

It is God's purpose and intention to save only those who believe the gospel concernng Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who refuse to believe the Gospel message.

From the People's New Testament...

2:4 Who will have all men to be saved. The scriptures uniformly represent it as the divine will that all should come to life. But he does not will to save men irrespective of the conditions of salvation. They must, in order to be saved,

come unto a knowledge of the truth. In other words, must hear, receive, and obey the gospel.

1 Timothy 2 People's New Testament

Man's opportunity to receive God's offer of salvation ends at the point of physical death.

(2 Cor. 6:1-2) 'Now is the day of salvation.'

Heb. 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment...

Your questions in post 384 are in reference to who is in the lake of fire and how long are they there for.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

First of all, the beast and the false prophet are NOT 'systems' or 'institutions' as some say. They are living beings who are tormented day and night forever and ever in the eternal fire. The beast or antichrist is a human being who has been impowered and probably possessed by Satan himself. He is a man who rises to power and makes a seven year treaty with Israel as per Daniel 9:27, but breaks it midway through the Tribulation. At this time he will become the world dictator and will force eveyone to take a mark on their hand or forehead. He is the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction of 2 Thess 2 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God.

The false prophet will be the leader of the world religious system that will exist once the true church is taken off the earth. Possibly the false prophet will be the Roman Catholic Pope.

They are cast into the lake of fire forever and ever-EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON-into the ages of the ages. It is emphatic and means without end, extending into eternity. 1 Tim 1:17; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb 1:8; Heb 13:21; Gal 1:5; Pet 4:11; Rev 1:6; Rev 1:18; Rev 4:9,10; Rev 5:13; Rev 7:12; Rev 10:6; Rev 11:15; Rev 15:7; Rev 22:5.

In Rev 14:11; Rev 19:3; and Rev 20:10, the phrase EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON is used for eternal damnation.

When Satan is thrown into the eternal lake of fire, it also means that all of the fallen angels are cast into the eternal fire with him. This all happens at the end of the Millennium at which time all unbelievers are resurrected out of hades to stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.

The same lake of fire is described in Matthew 25:41,46 as the eternal fire. ''Then He will also say to those on His left, ''Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and His angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Now, Matthew 25:41 does not refer to the Great White throne judgment, but to the judgment that occurs a thousand years earlier at the Second Advent of Christ at the end of the Tribulation when all unbelievers coming out of the Tribulation are cast off the earth. Only believers will remain on the earth to go into the Millennial kingdom of Christ. Some say Matthew 25:41 refers to hades, but the passage says 'the eternal fire prepared for Satan and his angels.'

And in 2 Thess 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with Hs mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day (compare with Matthew 24:30), and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

2 Thess 1:7-10 is also a reference to the Second Advent of Christ and refers to unbelieving humanity being cast off the earth at His return.

From the People's New Testament...

2 Thessalonians 1 People's New Testament

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Compared with Revelation 19:3 concerning the judgment of the great harlot Babylon. 'And a second time they said, ''Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.'' Babylon, both the city and the religious system will be destroyed forever. The judgment that comes upon Babylon is only the beginning of the punishment of the wicked as indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.

Their smoke goes up forever and ever is a phrase for eternity.

God's judgments in time cannot be compared to His eternal judgments. Those who depart this life without Christ are lost forever. So says the word of God in clear and explicit language.

The passages that universalists use to defend their false doctrines do not say or imply that all men will be saved. God did everything necessary to provide salvation for those who will receive it through faith in Christ The opportunity to receive the free gift of eternal salvation ends with physical death.
 
Old 05-05-2010, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,412,771 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is God's desire that all men be saved as per 1 Tim 2:4.

It is God's purpose and intention to save only those who believe the gospel concernng Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who refuse to believe the Gospel message.

From the People's New Testament...

2:4 Who will have all men to be saved. The scriptures uniformly represent it as the divine will that all should come to life. But he does not will to save men irrespective of the conditions of salvation. They must, in order to be saved,

come unto a knowledge of the truth. In other words, must hear, receive, and obey the gospel.

1 Timothy 2 People's New Testament

Man's opportunity to receive God's offer of salvation ends at the point of physical death.

(2 Cor. 6:1-2) 'Now is the day of salvation.'

Heb. 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment...

Your questions in post 384 are in reference to who is in the lake of fire and how long are they there for.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

First of all, the beast and the false prophet are NOT 'systems' or 'institutions' as some say. They are living beings who are tormented day and night forever and ever in the eternal fire. The beast or antichrist is a human being who has been impowered and probably possessed by Satan himself. He is a man who rises to power and makes a seven year treaty with Israel as per Daniel 9:27, but breaks it midway through the Tribulation. At this time he will become the world dictator and will force eveyone to take a mark on their hand or forehead. He is the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction of 2 Thess 2 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God.

The false prophet will be the leader of the world religious system that will exist once the true church is taken off the earth. Possibly the false prophet will be the Roman Catholic Pope.

They are cast into the lake of fire forever and ever-EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON-into the ages of the ages. It is emphatic and means without end, extending into eternity. 1 Tim 1:17; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb 1:8; Heb 13:21; Gal 1:5; Pet 4:11; Rev 1:6; Rev 1:18; Rev 4:9,10; Rev 5:13; Rev 7:12; Rev 10:6; Rev 11:15; Rev 15:7; Rev 22:5.

In Rev 14:11; Rev 19:3; and Rev 20:10, the phrase EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON is used for eternal damnation.

When Satan is thrown into the eternal lake of fire, it also means that all of the fallen angels are cast into the eternal fire with him. This all happens at the end of the Millennium at which time all unbelievers are resurrected out of hades to stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.

The same lake of fire is described in Matthew 25:41,46 as the eternal fire. ''Then He will also say to those on His left, ''Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and His angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Now, Matthew 25:41 does not refer to the Great White throne judgment, but to the judgment that occurs a thousand years earlier at the Second Advent of Christ at the end of the Tribulation when all unbelievers coming out of the Tribulation are cast off the earth. Only believers will remain on the earth to go into the Millennial kingdom of Christ. Some say Matthew 25:41 refers to hades, but the passage says 'the eternal fire prepared for Satan and his angels.'

And in 2 Thess 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with Hs mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day (compare with Matthew 24:30), and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

2 Thess 1:7-10 is also a reference to the Second Advent of Christ and refers to unbelieving humanity being cast off the earth at His return.

From the People's New Testament...

2 Thessalonians 1 People's New Testament

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Compared with Revelation 19:3 concerning the judgment of the great harlot Babylon. 'And a second time they said, ''Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.'' Babylon, both the city and the religious system will be destroyed forever. The judgment that comes upon Babylon is only the beginning of the punishment of the wicked as indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.

Their smoke goes up forever and ever is a phrase for eternity.

God's judgments in time cannot be compared to His eternal judgments. Those who depart this life without Christ are lost forever. So says the word of God in clear and explicit language.

The passages that universalists use to defend their false doctrines do not say or imply that all men will be saved. God did everything necessary to provide salvation for those who will receive it through faith in Christ The opportunity to receive the free gift of eternal salvation ends with physical death.
Forgetting for a second what I don't believe, (Angels, Satan, Heaven, Hell..etc) how do you reconcile your doctrine with 'Good News?' Is it only Good News to those who believe as you do?

What verse tells you that to proclaim "have faith or go to hell" is the 'Good News?'

Perhaps I cannot believe in the 'Good News' either!
 
Old 05-05-2010, 07:11 PM
 
20,338 posts, read 15,721,845 times
Reputation: 7482
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
That is so wrong! Hell is the reason Jesus paid such a HIGH price on the cross Jesus believed it that's why He provided the way for us to escape it. He left His throne and glory to die an excruciating death to keep us out of hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post



That's right ILNC. The penalty for sin is death. Spiritual death (Rom. 5:12, 6:23), which is separation from God in time. For any member of the human race who dies without having believed in Christ for salvation, that spiritual death which again is separation from God in time, is parlayed into eternal separation from God which first manifests itself in the temporary prison of Hades in that part known as Torments (Luke 16:23), and then after the Millennium, having been resurrected out of Hades to stand before Christ in his resurrected body, he is ordered by Jesus into the lake of fire which is the Second death-eternally separated from God in the place prepared for the devil and his angels-the eternal fire-the lake of fire-the furnace of fire-the place where their worm never dies-or as many call it-hell. (Rev 20:11-15).

Genesis 2:17 says, ''but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.''

But that is not a correct translation. For some reason most translations don't bring this passage into the Engllish properly. What the passage in the original Hebrew says is...

Genesis 2:17 and from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, dying (spiritually-separation from God in time) you shall die (physical death).

Adam died spiritually the moment he ate the fruit in disobedience to God. His relationship with God was severed-broken off. As a result of his fallen condition and newly acquired old sin nature, Adam became subject to physical death which in his case happened many hundred's of years later.

Thereafter, all members of the human race are born physically alive but spiritually dead-already under condemnation. And apart from believing in Christ for eternal salvation, a person will die already condemned and on his way to hell.

The penalty for sin is death, and ultimately that means eternal separation from God in the lake of fire which is the Second death, which is not cessation of existence, but is conscious torment in a condition of utter ruin and uselessness.

Strong's number for 'PERISH' is G622.

From the P-R-E-C-E-P-T*** A-U-S-T-I-N website...

Perish (622) (Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon ( Rev 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy uttery but not caused to cease to exist.

Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).

Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose.

Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 13:42,50).

( Romans 2:9-12 Commentary )

As Jesus graciously warned in Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him (God) who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Great post.
Thanks.
 
Old 05-05-2010, 07:33 PM
 
78 posts, read 87,875 times
Reputation: 39
Matt 5:43-45 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Jesus tells us to love our enemies and do good toward them, but yet the ET crowd says that The Father will roast and toast His for all eternity, can anyone see hypocrisy there????

Yes Jesus came to deliever us (ALL) from death, not eternal toasting
 
Old 05-05-2010, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,193 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Then if there is no focus on MANKIND POST MORTEM why speculate on what happens after life?
Because the scripture is also clear on what reward the man receives for his faith in life.

Quote:
IOW how can you believe Jesus died to save people from hell when the focus is not POST MORTEM... and the bible states Jesus came to save the lost, destroyed, ungodly from sin and death.
You are already dead without Jesus, in this life, AND in the the afterlife.

Quote:
If Jesus came to save the lost, destroyed, and ungodly from hell.... well that was a lost cause wasn't it? Talk about setting yourself up for failure!
You confuse yourself with your own words.

Quote:
If you truly believe there is POST MORTEM punishment for rejection of the gospel then how can you say the primary focus of scripture is on MANKIND, not MANKIND POST MORTEM?
Because the primary focus is how man is in THIS LIFE, and what he receives POST MORTEM For THIS LIFE and THE FAITH in THIS LIFE.

Quote:
I don't think Jesus would have been dumb enough to agree to save the lost, destroyed, and ungodly from HELL if he believed that the lost, destroyed, and ungodly would be spending eternity there anyway.
Ask Him. It's in the word of God.
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