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Old 05-06-2010, 11:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
where is the kingdom of heaven?

According to scripture it is within us.

So what that scripture is saying is that the firey furnace will weed out all SIN from within man. Will weed out all that the devil planted.
Exactly! This is a an example of the refining fire of God.

 
Old 05-06-2010, 11:09 AM
 
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The Refining Fires of God

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

1 Cor 3
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rev 20
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So here we see several examples of what the fire of God does.

- It refines like a refiner's fire or like fuller's soap (KJV).
- Peter tells us we will experience fiery trials
- we are told everyone will be "salted" with fire
- God's minister's are like a flame of fire
- even God is called a consuming fire
- God refines people through fire -> they may suffer loss but will be saved by fire

Now does anyone think that any of these references is referring to "hell"? Mark tells us everyone is going to be salted with fire. Does that mean we are all going to "hell"? In 1 Cor 3 Paul tells us that we will be tried in fire, and the fire will manifest our works, and will burn up the works of straw and wood. Is this "hell"? No, no, and no. None of these are references to literal fire, but instead are referring to spiritual fire - God's consuming fire that refines a person into pure gold (not literal gold either, but spiritual gold).

So when we come to Revelations, which is a book filled with symbols, why would you think the lake of fire is now all of a sudden physical literal fire that tortures people forever? Why should we think the lake of fire is "hell"? Look all the examples of what spiritual fire does. It always refines, burning up the bad, and purifying the good. Look at the similarities between Rev 20 and 1 Cor 3:

- Every man is judged, tried, and tested according to his works
- the works are burned up
- they are burned up in spiritual fire

Is God a respector of persons? Does God use spiritual fire to refine true believers, and then turns around and uses fire (physical or spiritual) to burn the unsaved for no other purpose than to torture them forever?

God is a consuming fire who saves.
 
Old 05-06-2010, 11:39 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,781,587 times
Reputation: 58199
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The Refining Fires of God

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

1 Cor 3
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rev 20
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So here we see several examples of what the fire of God does.

- It refines like a refiner's fire or like fuller's soap (KJV).
- Peter tells us we will experience fiery trials
- we are told everyone will be "salted" with fire
- God's minister's are like a flame of fire
- even God is called a consuming fire
- God refines people through fire -> they may suffer loss but will be saved by fire

Now does anyone think that any of these references is referring to "hell"? Mark tells us everyone is going to be salted with fire. Does that mean we are all going to "hell"? In 1 Cor 3 Paul tells us that we will be tried in fire, and the fire will manifest our works, and will burn up the works of straw and wood. Is this "hell"? No, no, and no. None of these are references to literal fire, but instead are referring to spiritual fire - God's consuming fire that refines a person into pure gold (not literal gold either, but spiritual gold).

So when we come to Revelations, which is a book filled with symbols, why would you think the lake of fire is now all of a sudden physical literal fire that tortures people forever? Why should we think the lake of fire is "hell"? Look all the examples of what spiritual fire does. It always refines, burning up the bad, and purifying the good. Look at the similarities between Rev 20 and 1 Cor 3:

- Every man is judged, tried, and tested according to his works
- the works are burned up
- they are burned up in spiritual fire

Is God a respector of persons? Does God use spiritual fire to refine true believers, and then turns around and uses fire (physical or spiritual) to burn the unsaved for no other purpose than to torture them forever?

God is a consuming fire who saves.
Great post Legoman! Now what do suppose "spiritual fire" is like? What can we liken it to in our "physical" realm....or can we even do this?
 
Old 05-06-2010, 12:08 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,429,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Great post Legoman! Now what do suppose "spiritual fire" is like? What can we liken it to in our "physical" realm....or can we even do this?
Thanks Ilene.

First, spiritual fire is not physical fire. No one learns much of anything useful by being burnt with physical fire, other than to keep away from it.

However, spiritual fire is like physical fire in many ways. What does real physical fire do?:
- it transforms things (wood is turned into heat, light, and smoke)
- it destroys
- it burns things up
- it consumes
- it purifies (gold being purified in the fire)
- it purges
- it refines

This is what spiritual fire does too.

This is a really good analogy someone told me (maybe from city-data, I can't remember where). When a refiner is making pure gold, he refines it in a fire. The impurities bubble to the top and are burnt off. The refiner can tell the gold is ready and fully pure, when he can see his own reflection - his own image - in the surface of the gold! The gold has become so pure it now reflects the image of its creator! Do you get this? God is refining us, and when we are done being refined, God will be able to see His own image in us!

We are being refined into spiritual gold, every day of our life. It is the trials by fire we experience every day that do this. When someone makes us angry and we have to be patient, we are being purified, just a little tiny bit at a time. When we learn our spouse or maybe even ourselves has cancer, that is a big trial for us physically, but spiritually it will teach us many important things - patience, love, selflessness, what really matters.

Even this forum is a spiritual fire for all of us! Hope you understand...
 
Old 05-06-2010, 12:18 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,781,587 times
Reputation: 58199
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Thanks Ilene.

First, spiritual fire is not physical fire. No one learns much of anything useful by being burnt with physical fire, other than to keep away from it.

However, spiritual fire is like physical fire in many ways. What does real physical fire do?:
- it transforms things (wood is turned into heat, light, and smoke)
- it destroys
- it burns things up
- it consumes
- it purifies (gold being purified in the fire)
- it purges
- it refines

This is what spiritual fire does too.

This is a really good analogy someone told me (maybe from city-data, I can't remember where). When a refiner is making pure gold, he refines it in a fire. The impurities bubble to the top and are burnt off. The refiner can tell the gold is ready and fully pure, when he can see his own reflection - his own image - in the surface of the gold! The gold has become so pure it now reflects the image of its creator! Do you get this? God is refining us, and when we are done being refined, God will be able to see His own image in us!

We are being refined into spiritual gold, every day of our life. It is the trials by fire we experience every day that do this. When someone makes us angry and we have to be patient, we are being purified, just a little tiny bit at a time. When we learn our spouse or maybe even ourselves has cancer, that is a big trial for us physically, but spiritually it will teach us many important things - patience, love, selflessness, what really matters.

Even this forum is a spiritual fire for all of us! Hope you understand...
Wow, that is a great analogy! But somehow I feel that after we die the "spiritual fire" will be a different experience than what we perceive as "spiritual fire" here......I know the trials we have are considered "by fire" but I don't get that.....I'm working on it. I would consider what you mentioned as fruits of the spirit as a result of being tried and tested. I guess I just don't think we have a clue as to what really being refined by fire means......something we can't know.
 
Old 05-06-2010, 12:29 PM
 
969 posts, read 721,413 times
Reputation: 394
Quote:
When someone makes us angry and we have to be patient, we are being purified, just a little tiny bit at a time.
So my 50 minute bumper-to-bumper drive to work everyday with morons talking on their cell phones is getting me ready for the kingdom?

Last edited by Zero 7; 05-06-2010 at 12:29 PM.. Reason: misspelling
 
Old 05-06-2010, 12:31 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,429,525 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Wow, that is a great analogy! But somehow I feel that after we die the "spiritual fire" will be a different experience than what we perceive as "spiritual fire" here......I know the trials we have are considered "by fire" but I don't get that.....I'm working on it. I would consider what you mentioned as fruits of the spirit as a result of being tried and tested. I guess I just don't think we have a clue as to what really being refined by fire means......something we can't know.
I don't know if anyone can say exactly what the spiritual fire would be after we die. We know many people will feel shame (Dan 12:2, Isa 45:22-25). Perhaps that will be much of it - feeling shame over all the stupid things you did and said in this life as God shows you everything that happened as a result of every action you ever did. Remember we will all give account... nothing leads to repentance faster than seeing the ramifications of it all clearly in front of your eyes.

Here's another "crazy whacked out" idea - this is just a theory, but I know a few people do believe this to be what scripture is saying. I'm not really too sure myself. Anyway, is this a possibility?:

We are all in the lake of fire right now in this life.

Just something to consider.
 
Old 05-06-2010, 12:32 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,429,525 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
So my 50 minute bumper-to-bumper drive to work everyday with morons talking on their cell phones is getting me ready for the kingdom?
Its certainly teaching you patience, no?
 
Old 05-06-2010, 12:41 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,491,441 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Well, ok then the sinners won't be allowed into the themselves, or that they will be weeded out of themselves.

I don't know you manage to misundersand something that is so clear

41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 13:36-42)
Dear Finn, I agree with you to a point. There is an outward kingdom and an inward kingdom.

It is not an either or. It is both.

Matthew 13:41 is about the physical, outward kingdom based in Israel. Jesus is going to kick out of that kingdom all causing sin and doing evil. They will probably get kicked out of Israel to live among the goat nations. They will go through fiery trials.
 
Old 05-06-2010, 01:01 PM
 
20,383 posts, read 15,761,505 times
Reputation: 7546
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You contradict yourself right here Mike. Your rightly acknowledge God desires to save all men. Then you say that God does not intend to save all men. Here is the problem. We can't very well say that God desires to save all men but He doesn't intend to save all men, because if He did desire to save all men, He would intend to save all men!
There is no contradiction. God would like all men to be saved, but it is not God's intention to save anyone apart from His requirement to believe and obey the Gospel, which means to believe in Christ for salvation. God saves all who place their faith in Christ and leaves in condemnation all who reject Christ. As the Scriptures say.



Quote:
I believe this is another error in interpretation. You are saying in order for all men to be saved they must come unto a knowledge of the truth. But this is backwards. The "coming unto a knowledge of the truth" is ALSO part of God's will and desire.

God wills/desires both: for all men to be saved AND for all men to come to a knowledge of the truth.

No man can come to a knowledge of the truth by themselves, we are completely helpless to do this without God, so it is on God to bring people to a knowledge of the truth AND to save them. That's why salvation is a complete work of God.
Did I say any man can come to a knowledge of the truth by themselves? Did the writer's of the People's New Testament say that any man can come to a knowledge of the truth by themselves? No one has said that.

God provides the Gospel and the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer of the Gospel. And the hearer of the Gospel must make a decision based on the Gospel whether or not to believe in Christ for salvation. Those who do believe in Christ are saved. Those who don't are left in eternal condemnation.


Quote:
Again, incorrect interpretation on your part. No one denies that judgment occurs after you die. But it is that judgment that will set things right, not condemn anyone forever.
The Scriptures say otherwise. The Bible flat out states that those who are thrown into the lake of fire are there eternally. 2 Thess 1:9; Matt 25:41,46; Rev. 20:10

Quote:
YLT:
2 Cor 6:1 And working together also we call upon [you] that ye receive not in vain the grace of God -- 2for He saith, `In an acceptable time I did hear thee, and in a day of salvation I did help thee, lo, now [is] a well-accepted time; lo, now, a day of salvation,

Now is a day of salvation, not the day of salvation. The correct translation is "a" day of salvation - its not the "only" day of salvation as you imply.
2 Cor. 6:2 relates back to Isaiah 49:8.

Wesley's Notes

6:2 For he saith-The sense is, as of old, there was a particular time wherein God was pleased to pour out his peculiar blessing, so there is now. And this is the particular time: This a time of peculiar blessing. Isaiah 49:8.


Matthews Henry's Concise Commentary

6:1-10 The gospel is a word of grace sounding in our ears. The gospel day is a day of salvation, the means of grace the means of salvation, the offers of the gospel the offers of salvation, and the present time the proper time to accept these offers...

The rest can be read here

2 Corinthians 6:2 For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.


Quote:
There are a number of misinterpretations above which I touched on in the post you responded to. You assume the "beast" and the "false prophet" are humans, not necessarily so. You must realize there are MANY anti-christs (1 John 2:18), not just one antichrist.
There are many antichrists. But the one who is referred to as the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction in 2 Thess chapter 2 is a man who makes a treaty with Irsael for seven years and breaks that treaty after 3 1/2 years. The beast and the false prophet are necessarily human.

Who or what is the antichrist? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Who is the antichrist?

Quote:
None of the passages that speak of humanity being thrown into the lake of fire specify that they never get out of the lake of fire. Also the correct translation for "forever and ever" is "to the ages of the ages" which is a finite period of time.
To the contrary. As I just listed, there are numerous passages that use the term EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON- to the ages of the ages-correctly translated into the English as 'Forever and ever.' I will not list them again here. They refer to eternal things such as the glory of God and the unending duration of His rule, and the eternal punishment of the unbeliever in the lake of fire.

A look at the phrase "forever and ever" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry


Quote:
Even your reference to Matt 25:41 does not indicate anyone is thrown into fire for eternity as it is only the fire that is described as "eternal" (really it is "eonian"), not the duration for which they are thrown into it.
Yes it does.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment....

Matthew 25:46 is describing the eternal nature of the punishment of those who in Matthew 25:41 are ordered by Jesus Christ into the eternal fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
Quote:
Matthew 25:46 should be properly translated as (from the Concordant Literal):
Matt 26:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

Not so. Universalists are always trying to convince everyone that the Greek word AIONION means eonian instead of eternal. AIONION is used to denote things that are of an eternal nature.

The New Greek/English Interlinear New Testament UBS 4th edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition translates Matthew 25:46 in the following manner...

Matt. 25:46 AND WILL GO AWAY THESE INTO ETERNAL-PUNISHMENT, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS INTO ETERNAL~LIFE.



As the following resources show, the word AIONION is used for eternal things...

The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: WORD STUDY ON AIONIOS, 'AIONIOS' LIFE MEANS ETERNAL LIFE

Wordgems - Time: Aionios

Aionios---An In Depth Study

L. Ray Smith, bibletruths.com -- critique

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal





Quote:
So as I summarized previously, the specific passages on the "lake of fire" do not specify exactly what happens to the humans who are thrown into it, or for what purpose they will be thrown into it. To understand that further it is useful to study what the spiritual fire does, I will try to address that in my next post.
The passages specify exactly what happens to unbelieving mankind. They are cast into the eternal fire where they spend eternity in a state of utter ruin and uselessness and torment.

Your cult of universalism exists for the purpose of promoting Satan's strategy of deceiving mankind into not recognizing the need to believe in Christ while the opportunity exists and therefore preventing them from being saved.

Universalists don't care about people's eternal souls, they care only about promoting universalism.
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