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Old 04-29-2010, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
Reputation: 1690

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, the question remains unanswered. Her answer said nothing about the transformation process I asked you about.

That's ok. I won't press you to answer again.



Been there, done that, and concluded against it. I believe it is Satan's tool to deceive people into believing they are saved without being born again into Christ.
Where did Ilene say that people will be in a "transformation process?"

I think you read that into the post...

What is interesting is that if Satan did exist, why would he try to deceive people into loving God more, trusting God completely regarding salvation, and loving others as if they are all part of God's family?

Doesn't that scream ridiculous to you?

Believing that all men are saved creates a love for humankind and God... the very two things Jesus advised us to do, yet the majority of hell-fire Christians look DOWN on sinners as if they never were one themselves. They kick them out of church, disassociate with unbelievers thus nullifying their ability to witness in church, and when witnessing they threaten them with God's wrath. You compare the fruits of the two and tell me which is most likely to be "satan's deception."

Oh and regarding your comment about my un-belief... nice try... I think I can stand your false representation...

Prov. 14:5 A truthful witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies.

Prov. 21:28 A false witness will perish, and whoever listens to him will be destroyed forever.

If I say I believe... So what are you doing? Bearing false witness? Hmmmm...

 
Old 04-29-2010, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,880,770 times
Reputation: 9408
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Finn, they only knew what the old testament told them about sheol, because the new testament wasn't written yet.

The old testament describes sheol as the resting place of the dead where there it is silent and there is no knowledge or device. That is what they would know according to the old testament which is all they had in terms of scriptures.
I could believe your theory, or I can listen to Jesus Christ explain that Moses and Prophets knew about it and told people.

Who do you think I choose to believe, you or Jesus? Yes Legoman, I choose Jesus. Sorry.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,880,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Where did Ilene say that people will be in a "transformation process?"
In her post.

Quote:
Oh and regarding your comment about my un-belief... nice try... I think I can stand your false representation...
Didn't you say yesterday that you did not believe? Or am I confusing you with someone else? I am not rating you faith, I am only going on what you said yesterday.

Quote:
What is interesting is that if Satan did exist, why would he try to deceive people into loving God more, trusting God completely regarding salvation
It makes perfect sense that he would try to convince people that satan doesn't exist, or if he exists he is only some kind of harmless cartoon figure, who has no power to deceive anyone. And it makes perfect sense that he would try to deceive people into believeing they do not need to be born again into Christ as the Bible says. If he can convince someone that everyone is saved no matter what, then people will think they don't need Christ. Simple. It is a perfect tool for Satan.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 04-29-2010 at 06:56 PM..
 
Old 04-29-2010, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,880,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
YES!!!!!! You are correct!!! Sadly many people are being fooled by this.
We must pray for those who have been deceived.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 06:49 PM
 
37,500 posts, read 25,238,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
We must pray for those who have been deceived.
Pray for yourselves. You cannot distinguish between the fruits of Satan and the fruits of love of God. I will pray you see the light before you die.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,880,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Pray for yourselves. You cannot distinguish between the fruits of Satan and the fruits of love of God. I will pray you see the light before you die.
Why bother? Why do I need to see the light before I die if I am saved no matter what?
 
Old 04-29-2010, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,685,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
We must pray for those who have been deceived.
Amen! Every single day.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Why bother? Why do I need to see the light before I die if I am saved no matter what?
Where in the world do you get the... "no matter what" line?

Asking for forgiveness everytime you make a mistake is saved "no matter what." The "what" doesn't matter if all you have to do is ask forgiveness for your sin...

This is the concept you just don't get...

You have it backward, it is not that you are good and then you are saved... it is you are saved so you CAN be good. It follows that if everyone believes themselves to be saved from their sin then they have no reason to keep sinning. But alas this is JUST my opinion!

If you clean the INSIDE (believe you are washed clean of sin) then your OUTSIDE will reflect that... (Matt 23:26)
 
Old 04-29-2010, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,482 posts, read 31,880,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You have it backward, it is not that you are good and then you are saved... it is you are saved so you CAN be good.
Who said anything about being good or bad?

When you say 'all are saved', then that means all are saved no matter what, and that includes Hitler, Stalin and Dahmler. There is no requirement for them to "see the light", which is good for them because I don't think they saw the light before their deaths.

I have accepted Christ as my personal saviour, so I am saved as promised in the Bible, so I don't need a universalist high-priest to tell me that everyone is saved whether they believe or not.

Quote:
If you clean the INSIDE (believe you are washed clean of sin) then your OUTSIDE will reflect that... (Matt 23:26)
Really? I guess Hitler and Stalin will make it to the univeralist hall of fame for reflecting all that clenliness brought upon them by universal salvation.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
It explains a lot seeing how the rich man was still able to speak and ask for "human" things.....It speaks volumes about how he had not yet been transformed. Just because the rich man's brothers wouldn't listen if Lazarus were to return does not mean they wouldn't eventually listen. I'm not buying the eternal hell thing anymore....so you're wasting your breath. All I can do is suggest you study it out like I'm doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
What makes you think there is a process of transformation in Hades? Where did you get that idea? That is all I am asking. What are the dead being transformed into, and do you have Biblical verses to back up the belief that the dead transform into something in Hades?

Yes, I have studied and prayed, and the more I do, the more I believe.

PS Hades/Sheol and eternal hell are not the same place. Nothing in the parable suggests it is permanent. Hades is a temporary place where the dead went, and it had a good side for the righteous, and a bad side for the unrighteous, and the two sides were divided. After Christ died he emptied the good side so as of today it is empty. And it stays empty because believers go to heaven when they die. However the bad side is not empty because unbelievers still go there. After the final judgement those who are in bad side of Hades (unbelievers), will end up in permanent hell aka the lake of fire.

Keep reading, and you will come to see the truth again.

After his death Christ decended to Hades, made a proclamation to his people, and then acended out of Haded with the believers

Ephesians 4:8-10

This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men." 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
In her post.
I've taken the time to quote Ilene's post above along with your response.. show me, please, where she states a transformation takes place in hades.... It is absent from her post, I think you are reading between lines that aren't there.



Quote:
Didn't you say yesterday that you did not believe? Or am I confusing you with someone else? I am not rating you faith, I am only going on what you said yesterday.
I don't believe in what?
Satan? no I don't believe in a horned bad guy out to get humans.
Angels? No, I don't believe in winged fairies that help the Almighty.
God? Yes, I am a theist.
Jesus? Yes, a wonderful example of God's very nature.
Heaven? No, I don't believe in a city on top of the clouds with pearly gates.
Hell? No, I don't believe in a lake of molten fire where humans burn eternally.

So what is it you think I said? (remember there are several Kat's here)



Quote:
It makes perfect sense that he would try to convince people that satan doesn't exist, or if he exists he is only some kind of harmless cartoon figure, who has no power to deceive anyone. And it makes perfect sense that he would try to deceive people into believeing they do not need to be born again into Christ as the Bible says. If he can convince someone that everyone is saved no matter what, then people will think they don't need Christ. Simple. It is a perfect tool for Satan.
How would belief in satan or not affect how one lives their life?? I am no different than the many who DO believe in satan, except that I don't blame a horned bad guy for the wrongs I commit. My wrongs are my own doing and I am wholly responsible for them.

The other problem I see is that there is no correlation between being saved and being born again. If you think being born again (into eternal life which according to Jesus was knowing God) means you are saved or vice versa then I would appreciate it if you provided some scripture as a reference.

Where does it say that to be saved you must be born again?

Where does it say to be saved you must have eternal life?

Where does it say that if you don't have eternal life you cannot be saved?

Thanks?
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